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Author Topic: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child  (Read 85482 times)
Adam
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2009, 03:10:27 PM »

I think one would be allowed a few mistakes in such a large project as ANY Windows version. Where would we be without Windows and Microsoft? We must remember that they are expected to work correctly with 1000s version of software.
In dark ages?
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Jeff
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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2009, 03:39:59 PM »

Yes that is true going back to the early eighties, when IBM decided to use MSdos as their PC DOS.  This stamped a standard on pc's.

But, what is happening now is continuous 'updates' and complications just to keep the revenue rolling in.  I think we more or less reached the top with XP and are now paying quite excessive prices for what are service packs and fancy fiddling with the presentation.  If they sold the updates as service packs at a reasonable charge, that would be a different manner.  Adobe are in the same business! Umpteen versions/updates of Elements all for the sake of it, sorry, to keep revenue up.

Now Qimage, that is a different matter, small 'flaw/bug' discovered immediately put right all covered in original cost.

Come to think of it if there was a version of Qimage for Linux I would be there in a shot.

Jeff

     
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Grumpy
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« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2009, 04:33:06 PM »

I think one would be allowed a few mistakes in such a large project as ANY Windows version. Where would we be without Windows and Microsoft? We must remember that they are expected to work correctly with 1000s version of software.
In dark ages?

But what happened to their year's worth of testing and release candidates before the public release?  I found these problems, one in minutes, and another in a few days of use.  MS shoots themselves in the foot because they always put out "orphan" products with their beta programs: release candidates that give you no path to convert/upgrade to the final version.  This means that you basically have to rebuild your machine TWICE: once for the RC's and again when the final version comes out.  This preempts people like me who are busy and don't have "spare" machines to dedicate to MS for testing and that really cuts down on their beta base.   

I think we more or less reached the top with XP and are now paying quite excessive prices for what are service packs and fancy fiddling with the presentation.  If they sold the updates as service packs at a reasonable charge, that would be a different manner.

Interesting thought and I pretty much agree.  I've always seen Vista (and now W7) as XP with some extra fluff: some of which is good for security/protection and others of which are just intrusive and/or don't work.

Mike
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tgutgu
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« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2009, 06:40:30 PM »

Regarding the explorer.exe issues in Win 7 32-bit they don't stay as orphan processes, they just don't disappear in Task Manager immediately after closing the window.

They absolutely do stay as orphan processes, they eat memory, and they never disappear unless you kill them!

Mike

Hmm

On my Win 7 32-bit system they disappear, after closing the window. So it is possibly a 64-bit issue (?)

Kind regards

Thomas
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Thomas

Equipment: Panasonic Lumix GH2 with lenses from 7 to 300 mm

Others: Windows 7-64 bit, Lightroom 3.5 RC, Qimage Ultimate, LightZone 3.8, Bibble 5.2.2
           DxO 6.6, Photoshop CS4, Wings Platinum 4.22
Adam
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2009, 08:16:51 PM »

On my 32-bit win7 they close also.

I still say this: windows runs on millions of computers that are configured differently software and hardware wise and I think it is an accomplishment in it self. Otherwise, I think everybody would run Linux of some flavor or Apple, but it is not happening.
Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.
In my case, I used Windows from 95 to win7 now (and other MS applications) and can see a huge progress. Anybody here old enough to remember WordPerfect, Lotus Wordstar and a likes. All are gone now, but MS is here to stay.
What can I say? I love windows!
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Fred A
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« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2009, 08:29:53 PM »

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some flavor or Apple

Crab Apple?
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rayw
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« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2009, 09:03:16 PM »

It depends what is meant by progress. I have an old cpm machine - Kaypro. I could probably plug that in, shove in the floppy disc, write a short letter, print it, and pack it up in the time it takes for windows to boot up from cold. I see no reason why anyone would need to rush into W7. It is obvious that there will be problems to start with. If they want me to test their product, they can pay me for my time. Grin

Windows installed on most machines? For years M$ have tied in with the machine makers, supplying cheaper oem copies, and recently they have been actively trying to suppress alternative OS's being installed. They are well known for bullying tactics. The open architecture of the PC was due to IBM, there is plenty of information of how the history evolved, how by luck Bill Gates got a toe hold in the business.

The popularity of software, and much else these days, is due to marketing, not necessarily quality of product. It pays them to release damaged versions.
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Fred A
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« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2009, 09:11:06 PM »

On my 32-bit win7 they close also.

I still say this: windows runs on millions of computers that are configured differently software and hardware wise and I think it is an accomplishment in it self. Otherwise, I think everybody would run Linux of some flavor or Apple, but it is not happening.
Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.
In my case, I used Windows from 95 to win7 now (and other MS applications) and can see a huge progress. Anybody here old enough to remember WordPerfect, Lotus Wordstar and a likes. All are gone now, but MS is here to stay.
What can I say? I love windows!


I have to take a somewhat reversed position.
True Windows has been "king" to millions upon millions, and they have all kinds of siftware running in it.
But that's really backwards. The people that write the software have developer packages and various languages designed to be compiled in Windows. So The software industry is really configuring its software to run in Windows. Not the other way.
That's why Mike is pointing out the irritating aspects of running/writing software as he tries to conform to W7 and finds bugs that impede the completion of the job.

The next item on which I disagree, is the driver issue and the "Runs in W 7" issue.
If your software requires a driver, like a printer, scanner, audio, video, you have years of warning along with the schematic setups so you can develop your W 7 drivers, 32 or 64 bit. If your software is hard wired and need updating to run in a larger operating system, you too have a package from MS that you buy which shows you the requirements to run in W7.
Sure, I was annoyed that my scanner (old one) didn't have an updated driver.... and I blamed W7. Reality says, Epson didn't want to waste time and manpower on a new driver for my old scanner.

As for Mike not writing for a Mac or Linux, it is a sensible business decision. It has little do do with how 'sweet or sour' the Mac may be. Just that there are not enough people willing to pay enough money to work for a year and never break even.
Simple as that.

Fred
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Fred A
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2009, 11:23:08 AM »

Quote
Sure, I was annoyed that my scanner (old one) didn't have an updated driver.... and I blamed W7. Reality says, Epson didn't want to waste time and manpower on a new driver for my old scanner.

Never though I would quote myself Smiley

I bit the bullet and got Vuescan to run my "old" Epson scanner that would not run in Windows 7, 64 bit.
Not only did it recognize my old scanner, but it resurrected it to produce top flight scans.

So things are looking up!!
Fred
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2009, 03:34:30 PM »

Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.

Has nothing to do with "want".  Give me 1000 programmers, a basket full of billions in cash, and a beta tester base in the millions and I guarantee I could produce software that knows how to end its own tasks.  Cheesy  And I would write Qimage for every OS out there, including the iPhone.

On my Win 7 32-bit system they disappear, after closing the window. So it is possibly a 64-bit issue (?)

I believe that is the case.  In fact, some 64 bit W7 machines don't even have the problem so I believe it is configuration/hardware dependent as well.

Mike
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 03:36:31 PM by Mike Chaney » Logged
TCollier
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2009, 04:25:28 PM »

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You should also bear in mind, that the majority of Windows 7 upgraders (including me!) do not have any problems so far (or at least no significant problems).

Getting a feel for how Windows 7 is really doing requires research: things like what OS and software you are using now, whether you are going to do an update or a clean install, and whether you are using 32 or 64 bit all factor into the equation.  We're still early in the transition but I have found some common issues that are fairly significant and have been corroborated via other users.  The two main ones are:

(1) Windows 7's folder/file security is EXTREMELY non user friendly and buggy.  Doing something as simple as restoring a folder of files can cause some or all of the files in the folder to not be readable, even if you have admin privileges.  Using the Windows "Properties" function, you'll find that if you select one file at a time, you can get to the "Security" tab where you'll need to delete all user access and add back the ones you want and take ownership of the file to correct this problem, but if you select more than one file, the "Security" tab is often missing, forcing you to do this one file at a time.  Worse, this seems random, where multiple files of the same type and same (current) privileges will cause the "Security" tab to disappear, while other multiple selections do work.  It's an absolute mess.  Setting security at the folder level says it works, but it doesn't: it randomly leaves out certain files in the folder and doesn't change them.  You can end up with a folder that you own, with simple files like JPG images or text files, and some of them won't open even if you open an explorer window in "Run as Administrator" mode.  I actually had to make a command line batch file to fix the problem.

(2) The longer you run your machine, the more instances of "Explorer.exe" will be running in task manager.  I've found as many as eight copies open, each using about 15 MB of memory or so.  Only one is the "correct one" that shows you your desktop.  The rest are W7 memory leaks!  Update: I actually located the problem with this one.  If you create an Explorer shortcut on your desktop using any of the Explorer startup switches, you get a new Explorer process each time you click on that icon... and they all hang around and never close even after you close the window.  As an example, just create a new shortcut using "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe /e,/select,c:".  Now each time you click on the icon you get a new Explorer.exe process that won't go away unless you kill it in Task Manager.  If the shortcut is just "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe" without the switches, it works OK.  Again this is with W7 64 bit.  Doing the same thing on Vista 64 bit leads to no problem: you do get an extra "Explorer.exe" process each time you open but they go away as soon as you close the Explorer window.  Just one of a number of W7 bugs that make even the most basic of OS operations painful.  W7 just was not ready for prime time: as of this writing, it still isn't!

As I said, a lot of factors contribute so you may or may not see these problems, but they are common.

Mike
Mike, I agree with you.  I have been 'installing' for a week now.  Sometimes W7 seems to be real solid, and then I'll have several instances of Windows Explorer go TU on me, i.e. Not responding.  Very frustrating, as this happens with very little going on, and can be very difficult to kill off.  And the security crap is a total nightmare!  After installing CS3, in XPVM, I couldn't print to my iPF6100!  All this just to get flashy buttons and transparent windows?  If I had known, I'd still be running XP w/o many issues at all.  BEWARE!
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gpeffer
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« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2009, 10:32:13 PM »

I upgraded from Vista 64  Home Premium to Windows 7 (upgrade kit) and everything works fine. I use Huey Pro 64 and so far all is well. So far.
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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2009, 07:33:04 PM »

I upgraded from Vista 64  Home Premium to Windows 7 (upgrade kit) and everything works fine. I use Huey Pro 64 and so far all is well. So far.

Give it time and have faith.  You will have problems!  Cheesy  I'm having more and more problems as time progresses, mainly more and more applications that W7 steps on while they are trying to save their own files.  I've got at least a half dozen programs that have caused the "file is in use by another process" error and I know it is coming from W7 immediately trying to open and fiddle with new files as soon as they are created.  And I'm still trying to find a way to get around the access problems where you can't even access files when you're an admin, you own the files, and they are in a folder where you have full access rights.  MS really screwed up file access and security in W7!

Mike
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Jeff
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2009, 08:22:46 AM »

A little off topic.

A few years ago I had a conducted tour of a AWAC at Waddington.  They showed us their computer system etc. and a question was asked - do you get any trouble with viruses? - No, we have no connection to the internet so not a problem, but, next computer system update with be running Windows, we will have to take precautions then.  I found that frightening, putting defense systems in the hands of foreign  - to us in the UK - system writers did not seem a good idea.

Also about the same time, a trip round Corus steel works control room, there was Windows controlling the enormous pots of metal!!!

jeff
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rayw
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« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2009, 11:43:36 AM »

Hi Jeff,

Properly engineered software can run quite well under a windows os, particularly if that is the only software running on the system, and a complete integrated system has been engineered, hardware and software. In the cases you mentioned, there would be many reasons why a Windows operating system would be the correct choice to make, some based on engineering, some based on politics. The user interface - the pictures you would have seen on the control panels - would be comparatively easy to implement at the time of your visit.  Standard safety critical features would hopefully being put in. The problem envisaged with the AWC situation is the connection to the internet - not windows, per se. However, it is difficult, bearing in mind the versions of windows and the software we see as the general public, to have much confidence in the choice made.

The situation is not the same as the mass marketing of software for general use that we are familiar with, which tries to allow for every combination of whatever device a user will want to add on to it, and badly written software written by unknown third parties.

As a matter of interest, many more 'real time' software projects are being ported to windows, due to the simplicity in adding on various bits of hardware, and the user interface.  Video editing,machine tool control, navigation systems being just a few.

Best wishes,

Ray
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