Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Technical Discussions => Printers => Topic started by: BruceW77 on June 02, 2018, 06:55:48 AM



Title: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 02, 2018, 06:55:48 AM
I have started this thread because I believe there is a general misunderstanding about the automatically generated cleaning cycles of the Canon Pixma Pro-100S and probably other Canon Pro models.
One of the common misunderstandings is that by using the printer, even just to print a nozzle check you can avoid an automatic cleaning cycle.  For the following 3 reasons I believe the cleaning cycles will happen regardless of whether a print has occurred:

1. I have observed it several times on my Pro-100S.
2. The Pro9000 Service Manual states that to be the case, so it is more than likely the case for the Pro-100 and 100S.
3. At least one other user has observed it to be the case for the Pro-100S.  (see https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/canon-pro-100-user-some-new-findings-about-cleaning-cycles.12176/)

The Pro9000 Service Manual talks about 2 timers, ie.  120 Hours and 480 Hours.  Essentially:
a.  If you send a print job to the printer and less than 120 hours has elapsed since the last cleaning cycle, no cleaning takes place before the print.
b.  If between 120 hours and 480 hours has elapsed since the last clean, a small amount of ink is flushed through the head prior to the print emerging.  The quantity mentioned appears to be in grams so I will just reference the time mentioned for the cycle, which is either 85s if both channels are flushed, or 75s if only one channel is flushed.
c.  If greater than 480 hours has elapsed since the last clean then about twice as much ink is flushed prior to the first print.  The cycles being 115s for both or 100s for one channel.

On the Pro-100S I have observed the 120 hour cycle several times.  I would never have let it reach the 480 hours.  I have never timed the cycle period, but since I have been using the Qimage purge sheets recently I expect both channels to flush at the same time.

The above mentioned manual also mentions "dot count cleaning", which means the printer will also do a clean when a certain number of dots are printed since the last clean.  The count number is not specified as far as I can see.

I will be making some suggested changes to the Purge sheet option in Qimage based on this information.
Another useful piece of information in the above mentioned manual is the following statement:

"If an ink tank is removed for 60 seconds or longer, cleaning is performed.
(Cleaning is performed according to the period of time an ink tank is removed from the print head, regardless of whether the ink tank is
actually replaced or not. If the same ink tank is removed and installed back multiple number of times, cleaning is performed based on the
accumulated period of time the ink tank is removed.)"

There is no mention of when the timer is reset.  One would expect printing would rest this timer.
The obvious implication is that a clean cycle can be avoided if a tank is changed in under 60s.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 02, 2018, 11:16:48 PM
I need to correct something I said in my original post.  ie. "since I have been using the Qimage purge sheets recently I expect both channels to flush at the same time"

Having thought about this I realise the Qimage purge cannot synch the 2 channels.  In fact the only 2 things I can think of that would cause the 2 channels to get out of sych are;
i. A manual clean of one channel, or
ii. Ink tanks related to just one channel are removed for more than 60s.
Conditions that would synch them again would be a manual clean of both channels, Print head removal and replacement or power off and on at the mains.

On the subject of powering off and on, I see nothing in the Pro9000 Service Manual about cleaning cycles if the switch on the front panel is used.  However, there is a significant clean:.....

"If the print head has not been capped before power-on".  In otherwords turn printer off on front panel before power down at the mains.
I may test the case when powering off using front panel, but have no intention of testing after powering of at the mains.  Ink is too expensive and I almost never turn off at the mains anyway.

By the way, using Qimage job log I can see the last print I sent to my Pro-100 which triggered a clean was at 22:55 on 31st May.  Hence I expect the next clean to happen when I send the first print job after 22:55 on 5th June.  Also, I can see there was a purge sheet from QI at 09:34 on 31st May which did not initiate a clean.  My point here is that the purge sheet did not stop the auto clean some hours later.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 06, 2018, 12:18:53 AM
Just a quick update on this.  As expected my Pro-100S did its 120 hour clean last night.
I had sent several print jobs to the printer during the day without triggering a clean.
A few minutes after the 120 hour period had expired I sent a form feed (blank page from a word processor) to the printer which triggered the clean.
Based on the Pro9000 Service Manual I expected the clean to last about 85s.  I used the stopwatch on my mobile phone to time how long it would take, but managed to stuff that up.  The Pro-100 has a "Feed Slot Cover", which the Pro9000 does not and I regularly forget to close this cover.   If you forget to close the cover to orange light on the front panel flashes and a warning message appears on the computer monitor.   It is necessary to close the cover and either press the button associated with the orange light or click on a screen option to get the print job to proceed.
When I sent the form feed to the printer I had forgotten to close the Feed Slot Cover, the printer initiated the clean cycle and around 94s I was wondering why the page had not started to feed, when I noticed the orange light flashing. So I think we can assume it is somewhere between 85s and 94s if both channels are due for cleaning.

Soon after the page feed had finished I turned the printer off (about 23:02 on 5th June) using the power button on the front panel.  Today at about 09:00 on 6th June I tuned the power back on.  There was no clean function performed.  The printer took about 30s to power up, but I am positive there was no clean.  Also, about 1 minute later it made some more noises for about 30s.  Just to be sure I sent another form feed to the printer, while remembering to close the Feed Slot Cover and again there was no clean.

I wasn't originally going to do this but felt confident to turn off again via front panel and then turn of at the mains and then on again at the mains before turning on again at the front panel, waiting several minutes between each action.  This time the printer took just over a minute to power up.  Also, about 1 minutes later it made some more noises for about 30s.

I think the noises made about a minute after power up each time are more related to transferring waste ink.  In fact a similar thing happens whenever I send a print job to the printer.

I will now test at about 23:00 on 10th June to see if the powering down has changed the start time for the 120 hour clean
Bruce

 


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 08, 2018, 12:30:07 PM
Unfortunately my tests of changes to cleaning cycle due to powering off and on have been disrupted.
Today I had a paper jam.  To be precise it was a Canvas jam. Reported as Support Code 5100. Once I had cleared the jam,which involved a power down, I sent a nozzle check to the printer.
Thankfully the printer seems to have survived, but there was some major cleaning activity when I turned on and when I sent the nozzle check.
I am guessing my 120 hour clean cycle has now been reset as of about 19:30 today 8th June.  I will advise if it has not.

The paper jam was my fault.  The canvas is quite old and has not been stored flat.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 13, 2018, 08:07:02 PM
I use the Pro 100 also ... interesting info you've posted.
Thanks

If you are familiar with spreadsheets ... I have an excel spreadsheet that
helps me keep track of number & size of prints I get from a set of carts.
If interested I can post a image sample or send you the actual file.

I now use PC inks and refill my carts. ( Precision Colors )


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Terry-M on June 14, 2018, 07:27:15 AM
Quote
I have an excel spreadsheet that
helps me keep track of number & size of prints I get from a set of carts.
I have one too that I update now and again.
See screen shot below of the final summary. I originally did this to prove that, relatively speaking, the cost of "original" inks was not excessive when compared to the total cost of a print.
I assume you are using the QU Print/Ink Analysis feature? See 2nd screen shot below.
I wonder how many commercial users know about this feature!
Terry


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 14, 2018, 01:09:38 PM
Hi dannac and Terry,
Yes, I am very familiar with spreadsheets.  Perhaps we need a thread titled "Costs of Printing"?

Fred A alerted me to the logging data in Qimage, as reference by Terry.  In fact you can view my estimated costs in the Qimage Ultimate forum on about 1st or 2nd June.
I think my costs were blown out by the fact it is a new printer and there is a lot of ink used to prime the printhead.
Anyway in that post I included a link to a RedRiver website that estimates ink usage for different printers.
Which brings me Terry to your cost calculations.  I was staggered at how low your ink costs are.  As an example, the RedRiver site suggests an A3+ ink cost would be US$2.70, which equates to GBP 2.02.
Your costs of just GBP 0.27 is about 7.5% that of RedRiver.  Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference?

Tomorrow I will post an update on the purge/cleaning issue.
Bruce



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Terry-M on June 14, 2018, 01:38:35 PM
Quote
Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference
They would be higher if I bought single Epson cartridges, about 3x as much but still not a huge proportion of the total cost. I'm able to get multi packs of genuine  Epson ink very cheaply. I'm pretty sure out of date hence the low cost. The driver shows dates going back 3 or 4 years. All works fine and colours are consistent using custom profiles I've had for some time.
Terry


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 14, 2018, 07:31:13 PM
Thanks guys ... was not aware of the feature within QU.

Will have to check it out.



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 15, 2018, 01:18:38 AM
On June 13th I sent a form feed to the printer at 19:30, which is about when I expected the 120 hour clean cycle to initiate.  Since I did not know the exact time of the previous clean, I was taking a guess.
I was a bit early and the form feed proceeded as normal without any preceding clean activity.  I sent another form feed 15 minutes later and it did result in the clean activity, followed by the form feed.

I recorded both the above actions on camera  and therefore was able to measure the exact time taken for all the activity.  I can advise that the clean action was 83s.  In addition I can advise that the period of inactivity after the form feed was 80s followed by a sequence of noises lasting 39s.

I recently sent a support request to Canon asking about the printer activity at turn on and following a print job.  The first response I received only referenced the turning on phase and was inaccurate, so I pointed that out in my reply and again asked about the activity after a print job.  The second reply was very vague and again did not answer the questions.  I decided it was a waste of time.  However I then received further responses asking if I was satisfied with the answers I decided to have another go.  This time I numbered the 2 questions and asked if they could answer the numbered questions.  The reply I got was just related to the first question ie. the power on activity.  In my forth attempt I just asked about the activity following a print job and finally got an answer.  So firstly here is the 3rd reply:

ďRegarding your query, when you try turning on the printer the printer head tends to use a small amount of ink to make the machine ready in printing jobs. It uses small amount of ink just to lubricate the printer head and to avoid ink clogging.

The printer has the function to automatically clean the ink jet nozzles to prevent clogging. In the cleaning procedure, used ink for nozzle cleaning is limited to a small amount.

Ink may be used for purposes other than printing. Ink is not only used for printing, but also for cleaning the print head to maintain the optimal printing quality.Ē

Here is the 4th reply:

 ďThe noise you hear from the printer right after printing is a mechanical noise as the ink carriage is initializing to settle to its resting position.Ē

So if Canon support is to be believed, a small amount of ink is used at power on (via front panel switch) and no ink is used in the activity that follows a print job.

I thought it worth checking the Service Manual for the Pro9500, to see how it differs from the Pro9000, since it seems to have been used as a guide by many users.  The Pro9500 uses Pigment ink vs the Dye ink used in the Pro9000 and Pro100.  For the 9500 there are actually 4 timers specified but for 2 adjacent periods the amount of ink purged is the same so essentially only the following periods need be considered:
- Period 1 : less than 60 hours since last clean;  no purge occurs.
- Period 2 and 3: between 60 and 240 hours; 1.4g (A-ch), 1.8g (B-ch)
- Period 4: between 240 and 480 hours; 2.5g (A-ch), 2.8g (B-ch)
- Period 5: 480 hours or more since last clean;  4.2g (A-ch), 4.7g (B-ch)
I cannot see any note for the Pro9500 saying that no ink is used if ink tanks are changed in less than 60s, like the Pro9000.

Comparing the above figures to the Pro9000, which I did not mention previously:
- Period 1: less that 120 hours; no purge
- Period 2: between 120 and 480 hours; 1.1g (A-ch), 0.8g (B-ch)
- Period 3: 480 hours or more; 2.1g (A-Ch), 1.7g (B-ch).

That is quite a difference, especially if you donít print for more than 480 hours.  ie potentially 8.9g on the Pro9500 vs 3.8g on the Pro9000.
The amount of ink is in grams, which is difficult to convert to ml.  If it was water at 4 degrees Celsius I believe it is a one for one conversion.  So I guess we can use the one for one conversion as a rough guide.

I donít really intend doing anymore testing as a I think I have enough understanding now to reasonably limit the ink waste.  So here is my summing up:

i.   My first point is the most important.  You cannot stop the automatic purge of ink used to clean the printhead by sending a printjob or purge sheet to the printer, at least for the 4 printers mentioned in this thread, specifically the Canon Pixma Pro 9000, 9500, 100, and 100S.  If you send a print job every single day, the auto purge will still happen when the timer expires with the very next printjob.  The reason for the confusion is the wording in the Service Manual which says for example: ďIf 120 to 480 hours have elapsed since the previous cleaning till the start of the next printing.Ē  Confusing words but testing has clarified itís meaning.  Printing does not restart the timer, cleaning does.

ii.  The automatic purge is triggered by a printjob, which can in fact be a purge sheet sent by say Qimage.  In this latter case an automatic purge will precede the purge sheet resulting in additional ink used, although I understand the ink used for purge sheets is minor.  A form feed will initiate the clean without using ink to print the purge sheet.  But normally just wait until the next print job.

iii.  The timing of the automatic purge is printer dependant.  However, for the above dye based printers it seems to be the same.  ie.  From 120 hours to 480 hours there is a small purge or double that if 480 hours is reached since last clean.

iv.  Many people seem to use 60 hours as the period after which an automatic purge will be triggered.  That seems to be based on the Pro9500 (and possible others)  and does not apply to the above dye based printers.

v.  The Service manuals also mention an automatic clean when a dot count is reached.  However no details are provided as to the value of that count.

vi.  Canon Support say that a small amount of ink is also used when the printer is turned on via the front panel.  Even more ink is used if the printer is turned on and off at the mains.

vii. Canon Support say ink is not used to clean the printhead following a printjob.

viii. For the Canon Pro9000, if you change an ink tank in less than 60s you can avoid an ink purge. I suspect this could apply to the above 3 dye ink printers but is less likely for the Pro9500.  I mention this specifically for those who plan to continue using OEM inks and are worried about wasting ink when changing just one tank at a time.  In fact for those who choose to use non OEM inks and were going to replace a full set at the same time,  may not need to do that.  They probably still need a second set of tanks because 60s is not a lot of time to refill.  Using squezy fill bottles with squezy cap system may be quick enough.  Need an expert opinion on that as I have never used the system.

viii.  There are a handful of events which could cause the printer timers to reset, such as: replacing a printhead, a manual clean or a fault condition such as the paper jam as mentioned in the previous post.

I have already changed my workflow.  I no longer send purge sheets to the printer every 2 days.  I reserve the purge sheet schedule feature, in Qimage, for times when I am likely to be away for an extended period of time, and will probably set the time interval for 1 week.  I still leave the printer on all the time but close the in and out tray to minimise dust getting inside the machine.  I am still unsure about the value of leaving the printer on.  Also, I am suspicious of the noises made 80s after a print.  About 20s of the noises sound very much like cleaning.  A notable difference is that the power light flashes during the known clean.  However, that is probably because there is a print job in the queue.

Finally a word on costs of the auto cleaning.  For the Pro9000 (and I assume the same for the Pro100 and 100S), if the printer is used regularly 1.9ml of ink is used every 5 days just for the auto clean.  To simplify the maths lets assume a 15ml cartridge costs $15, that means the purge cost $1.90.  Over 1 year there would be 73 purges costing $138.70 a year.  On the Red River website they have calculated costs of ink for different printers.  Here is the link for the Pro-100 http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing-canon-pro-100.html.   Red River admit they have not included an allowance for cleaning.  Hence the above cleaning cost needs to be distributed over the actual printing costs.  The dot count cleaning would add even more.

Thatís about it for now.  If anyone is interested in the 2 videos I used to measure the time to clean, let me know and I will upload them.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 15, 2018, 08:51:24 PM
I've been printing every couple days after watching Jose video on youtube regarding the 60 day timer.

Never was convinced it helped as I still here all those whirling sounds every time I turn it on, either before or after printng.

Also had tried leaving printer on.
We had an unusual amount of power outages for a few months. (equipment failures & vehicle accidents)
I abandoned the idea of leaving it on ... also read that it's bad to remove plug from receptacle or main power source.

Thanks for all the info Bruce.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 18, 2018, 11:44:26 AM
Why canít I just let this go?
It occurred to me that all I needed to do was weigh a cartridge just before an auto clean and then again just after.  That is what I have now done.

First I should clear up one minor point.  Previously I mentioned that the Pro9000 uses 1.1g (A-ch) and 0.8g (B-ch) for the 120 hour purge.  Channel A and channel B represent the 2 sides of the printhead.  The reason channel A and B purge different amounts is that one side supports 5 colours and the other side supports 3 colours.  If you look in the printer driver maintenance tab for nozzle clean you get a choice of cleaning all 8 colours or Group 1 or Group 2.
Group 1 is Bk, R, G, PC and PM
Group 2  is C, M and Y.

The Pro100 is evenly split as follows:
Group 1 is PC, M, Y and PM
Group 2 is C, Bk, LGY and GY

For the Pro9000 the Service Manual specifies that if the120 hour timer expires; 1.1g + 0.8g of ink is purged.  Thatís 0.238g per colour.

Before the scheduled purge, of my Pro 100, I weighed the LGY getting a result of 21.45g
After the 120 hour purge the LGY weighed 21.21g.  Hence 0.24g is right in the same ball park as the Pro9000, considering the accuracy of my scales.

While I was at it I did a few other tests:
- After first measuring the LGY, I waited a few minutes and measured it again, getting the same result.  This confirms that changing the cartridge in less than 60s avoids a purge.
After the 120 hour timed purge I waited a few minutes and turned the printer off,  then turned it back on a few minutes later, waited and measured the LGY cartridge again.  This time it weighed 21.20g.  The slight difference is probably just the accuracy of the scales again.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 18, 2018, 05:08:42 PM
Thanks Bruce.

Just curious ... on my Pro 100, I've done 5 or 6 refills.
Every time it is the PM color that gives the low warning.

Is this the same for you (or anyone else) ?


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 18, 2018, 10:42:22 PM
It is still early days for my Pro100S.  I am only half way through the original ink set.
Here are my estimates of current ink levels:
- M, PC and C at about 60%
- Bk, PM and LGY about 50%
- Y and GY about 40%

The impression I got from forums was that the greys and black were used most.  It obviously depends a lot on what you print.
I use to refill my Pro9000 and looking at the ink that is left in the refill bottles, Yellow and Black seem to be used most.  The others are at similar levels.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 19, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
It is still early days for my Pro100S.  I am only half way through the original ink set.
Here are my estimates of current ink levels:
- M, PC and C at about 60%
- Bk, PM and LGY about 50%
- Y and GY about 40%

The impression I got from forums was that the greys and black were used most.  It obviously depends a lot on what you print.
I use to refill my Pro9000 and looking at the ink that is left in the refill bottles, Yellow and Black seem to be used most.  The others are at similar levels.

Bruce

Thanks


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 20, 2018, 02:31:27 AM
I have just been watching Jose Rodriguez PHOTO PRINTING TECHIE LIVE Stream for last Saturday 16th June 2018.  He gives a good explanation of the noises heard about 30 or so after a print.
I recommend you watch the relevant section, to which the following link will take you:

 https://youtu.be/VYcYrHt6HEk?t=2h2m42s

You can of course watch the whole video.  I have just cued the segment relevant to this thread.

In summary he confirms this is not a clean cycle but a pumping of ink from the purge pads and a head wipe.  The only ink being wasted from the cartridges is any loose drops that would otherwise leave smears on your print.  It's a good thing, just a little frustrating too hear those noises while wondering if it could be a clean activity, wasting ink.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 21, 2018, 10:24:40 AM
Thanks Bruce.

... also for the tip on viewing a video from a certain spot, did not know you could do that.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 23, 2018, 01:05:58 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for doing the research.  I've always questioned the 60 hour myth and even posted in one of Jose's videos about a year ago saying that I've printed some large photos one day and then less than 24 hours later went to print a one page text document and got the cleaning cycle.  So the 60 hour deal never added up for me.

I have to say the implementation you describe is a bit odd from Canon.  Since the cleaning cycle only happens when something prints (or any code like a page eject is sent), they're obviously not saying that the printer will be damaged just by sitting for 5 days (120 hours) or 20 days (480 hours).... because you could let it sit for a year and not print anything and no cleaning cycle will be performed.  Theoretically if you did let it sit for a year and not print anything, when you do print, it'll run the 480 hour (larger) cleaning cycle and reset the timer.  From a logistics standpoint, if you get to the 480 hour point without printing and it runs a 2x cleaning cycle that uses twice the ink of the 120 hour cycle, so what?  By 480 hours, you've skipped four 120 hour cycles.  If you had printed something every 120 hours, you would have used 2x the ink of a single 480 hour cleaning cycle by the time you get to 480 hours compared to just letting it sit without printing for 480 hours.

So all this begs the question, what to do?  It sounds like if you print regularly, say every day or two, you're going to get a cleaning cycle every 5 days.  So I think my preference might be to print a purge sheet every 4 days.  That way if you print nothing (aside from the purge sheets), you'll get a purge sheet every 4 days and a smaller 120 hour cleaning cycle every 8 days.  I think it's good to keep the ink flowing so not leaving it idle for more than 4 days sounds like a good thing.  And getting a small cleaning cycle every 8 days (assuming you don't print anything else in the middle) might be good as well since the cleaning cycle timer can't do its job unless something is printed.  Printing a purge sheet every 4 days should help to keep ink flowing so you get perfect prints every time and the cleaning cycle will use so much more ink than a purge sheet that the ink used by the purge sheets will get lost in the noise.

You might think they could have been a little smarter with the design so that if a certain volume of ink (perhaps from each channel) was used prior to the 120 hour cleaning cycle, it would reset it and skip the cleaning cycle.  Or... just a way to turn that "feature" off because those of us printing purge sheets would not need it.  I think I can see what they were going for though: a "guarantee" that when you print, you could never have more than 5 day old ink in any given nozzle, and that's what the described method does.  They are worried about a bubble jet printer burning out nozzles by trying to print with dried up ink/nozzles.  So you could let it sit for 6 months and print nothing and the printer won't do any cleaning cycles: it doesn't need to since you are not asking it to print.  But when you do print at 6 months, before it can start using the nozzles again, it has to run a cleaning cycle to ensure that all the nozzles are free flowing before trying to use them to print.  My guess is that Canon looked at some burned out heads in older models and determined that they burned out from trying to fire up and print after being idle for a certain time OR that 5 day old ink in some nozzles may cause a problem.  They may have determined that sitting for longer than 5 days and then trying to produce a print was a risk: so they made sure that the printer could never print with more than 5 day old ink sitting in the nozzles.  I'm also guessing that they also determined that if left to sit 20 or more days, it took a heavier cleaning cycle to guarantee no nozzle clogs before printing: hence the 480+ cleaning cycle.

Anyway, that's my speculation.  :)

Edit: I should also mention, if the findings posted here are accurate, whenever you print with your Pro-100, there is a guarantee that the ink sitting at the heating elements in the nozzles hasn't been sitting there for more than 5 days.  5 days may be a good number for OEM inks.  What if you are using 3rd party inks?  Maybe 3rd party inks shouldn't sit stagnant in the nozzles more than 2 days, or even 1 day.  This is the uncertainty of using 3rd party inks: we really don't know their characteristics so it might be good to err on the side of caution and still print purge sheets every 2 days or so if you are not running the OEM inks.  Still speculation of course but Canon thought it important enough to put this feature in that guarantees that when you print, the ink at the nozzles hasn't been sitting there longer than 5 days.  Who knows if 3rd party inks might need to be "moved" more often.  I doubt the 3rd party manufacturers even have that answer!

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on June 23, 2018, 07:51:01 AM
I must put my hand up, I am guilty of printer 'neglect'

My Pro 100S somtimes gets unused for up to a month, after which I do a nozzle check and run a purge print, all always checks out ok and never a bad print.

I cannot determine if this uses more ink, (OEM) no idea of costs per print.

Jeff 


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 23, 2018, 12:40:32 PM
Good point about the 3rd party inks.
I guess only experience is going to shed some light on these questions.  Either way I don't plan to let my printer sit unused for 20 days if I can help.

For the last 5 days, since the last programmed auto purge I have deliberately not printed with my Pro-100S.  I have been turning it on and off via the front panel at regular intervals.  Each time I powered on I timed how long before it stopped moving and making noises, which was typically 30s each time. There was no set time period between switching on and off, but it was switched off and on about 5 or 6 times.  The printer had probably spent 75% of the time off and 25% of the time on.  Today I powered on at 16:00, knowing the printer was due for itís 120 hour purge at roughly 20:00.

I first sent a Form Feed to confirm there was no purge forthcoming.  There was no purge.

I then, after a few minutes, weighed the LGY cartridge.  It was 21.14g.  I put it back in and took it out 2 more times, weighing each time.  Results were 21.17g and 21.16g.  When I last weighed this cartridge, as the 5 day test period started, it weighed 21.20g. Not a very clever or definitive test.  I could not find any information about the accuracy of my scales, but some of the above results give the impression itís not too bad. The lost ink in one cartridge seems to be about 0.05g.  Over 8 cartridges thatís would total 0.4g.

Previous tests show a single cartridge loses 0.24g during an auto purge, or 1.9g over all 8 cartridges.

I sent another form feed.  No purge.  The accumulated time for the LGY cartridge being out of the printer had not been timed, but I estimated it was getting close to the 60s timer mentioned in the Pro9000 Service Manual as a trigger for initiating a purge.  There had not been a purge so I now decided to test by taking the PC cartridge out for more than 60s.  It was out for approx 76s.  I chose PC because it is in Group 1, whereas LGY is in Group 2.  I sent a Form Feed.  Result was a purge followed by the form feed.

I now measured all 8 cartridges.  The cartridges in Group 1 had a total loss of 1.13g (average of 0.28g per cartridge).  The cartridges in Group 2 had lost a total or 0.09g (average of 0.02g per cartridge).  I then did another form feed to confirm I had not tipped the LGY cartridge over the timer limit.  There was no further purge.

Group 1 and Group 2 are now out of synch, re purge times) by about 4 hours.  I waited until 20:35 and sent a form feed.  A purge resulted.

I measured the weight of all 8 cartridges. The cartridges in Group 2 had lost a total of 0.9g (average of 0.235g per cartridge).  The cartridges in Group 1 had lost a total of 0.01g.

In summary, there was a small loss of ink over the last 5 days (approx 0.05g in one cartridge), following several power up and down episodes, with no print jobs.  The test sample was too small to be confident in the result.  I suspect any loss is more likely from wiping the print-head to avoid drops on printer paper.

As determined previously, it is possible to remove and replace a cartridge within a defined period without triggering a purge.  That time period is less than 76s and more than likely 60s, as defined for the Pro9000 in itís Service Manual.  If this timer expires for any given cartridge, it triggers a purge for the group to which that cartridge belongs, when the next print job is sent to the printer.  The amount of ink purged, per cartridge, is close to that amount purged during the 120 hour purge.
A group purge related to the 60s cartridge remove and insert resets the 120 hour timer for that group only.

The purge cycles for the 2 segments of my printhead are now out of synch by 4.5 hours.  ie.  Group 1, now due to purge at 16:00 on 28th June and Group 2 is due at 20:35 same day.
I timed how long I had the Cyan cartridge out of the printer (15s), so that next time I can get a more accurate value for the expected 60s timer.
 
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 23, 2018, 02:04:58 PM
Bruce,

This is great work/info!  I think the takeaway for most people on this latest test is "I can avoid the 120 hour cleaning by turning my printer off".  Since you appear to have avoided the 120 hour cleaning cycle by powering off/on, my question at this point is: did powering it off/on actually reset the timer because a small amount of ink was used to power the printer on?  Or is it simply unable to update the timer when the printer is off?  If the former, you might be tempted to just turn the printer off and back on every 4 days or so to avoid the 120 hour cycle altogether and only using what appears to be a very small amount of ink for initialization.  If the latter, you may just be delaying the inevitable.

I also wonder, would it be worth testing the auto power on/off feature to see what effect that has on the auto cleaning cycles?

Regards,
Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 23, 2018, 11:46:09 PM
Mike, You seem to have misinterpreted what happened.
The printer still keeps the timers running when it is turned off.
The sequence (in summary) was:
- Previous clean was on 18th June at about 20:00.  Hence next clean was due at approx 20:00 on 23rd June (but I did not print until 20:35 on 23rd June).
- I powered on and off several times during the 5 days and did not print.
- I powered on at 16:00 on 23rd June.
- I essentially forced one group (Group 1) to clean, by taking the PC cartridge out for 76s.  That has reset the timer for Group 1, but not Group2.
- I waited until 20:35 (printer on) and sent a print job (FF).  This caused the autoclean for Group 2 only, resetting it's timer.

So as you pointed out in your post, you can delay the clean by not printing, for as long as you are willing to take that risk, but you also cannot print.  The first print you do after the timer expires (including a form feed) will cause the purge before the print is performed.  So I just delayed the print job for 35min.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 24, 2018, 12:50:35 AM
Just to add some more clarity, my plan now is to lift the Cyan cartridge for 40s on 28th June at about 15:30. I may be using the printer in the next 5 days, so weighing may not be any value.
I will then print a FF, lift the Cyan for 2 minutes, print a FF, etc, until the FF initiates a purge of Group2 prior to the paper feed.  That way I should get the value of the timer within 2 minutes.  The 15:30 time is so I don't initiate the Group 1 clean with the FF until I finished my test.  That would confuse the process.

Now to add some muddy water; in my mind the biggest unknown still is how a normal manual clean interacts with a Heavy clean if 480 hours has elapsed.  I can't imagine the 480 hour timer is reset and I cannot imagine the 2 timers are not reset at the same time.  So does the printer just do a Heavy clean, despite only requesting a light clean?

I have been thinking of drawing up an SDL diagram to show how I believe the printer cleaning phases work.  An SDL is a bit like a flow diagram, only better.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on June 24, 2018, 09:52:33 PM

So all this begs the question, what to do?  It sounds like if you print regularly, say every day or two, you're going to get a cleaning cycle every 5 days.  So I think my preference might be to print a purge sheet every 4 days.  That way if you print nothing (aside from the purge sheets), you'll get a purge sheet every 4 days and a smaller 120 hour cleaning cycle every 8 days.  I think it's good to keep the ink flowing so not leaving it idle for more than 4 days sounds like a good thing.  And getting a small cleaning cycle every 8 days (assuming you don't print anything else in the middle) might be good as well since the cleaning cycle timer can't do its job unless something is printed.  Printing a purge sheet every 4 days should help to keep ink flowing so you get perfect prints every time and the cleaning cycle will use so much more ink than a purge sheet that the ink used by the purge sheets will get lost in the noise.


Mike

Thanks for all this info ... will try this out.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 24, 2018, 10:54:38 PM
Mike, Sorry I forgot to respond to your question about auto power on/off.

Since I use WiFi for the Pro-100 I cannot use the auto power on for that situation.  I think I can use the auto power off.
Maybe I could use a LAN cable.
But to answer you question; it's worth testing anything that has the potential to change the behaviour.  In this case I think the chance it will change is low.
I think it is more likely that power off at the mains is going to change the behaviour.  I think in my earlier test the startup time was about 60s using mains power switch vs 30s using front panel switch.
So there is definitely more happening when you power on and off via the mains.

By the way, I am now thinking of not printing until 28th.  I have powered down and plan to leave the printer off until 28th.  I was not happy with my small sample test last time.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 25, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
But to answer you question; it's worth testing anything that has the potential to change the behaviour.

Yes.  That's what I was looking for.  Sometimes there's a hidden "switch" or something that can change the behavior.  For example, what if putting it into quiet mode alters the setting or even turns it off?  I doubt it, but you get the idea: is there anything we can do to change the 120/480 cycles?

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 25, 2018, 11:17:56 PM
I don't believe there are any options to change the 120 and 480 hours permanently.
All you can do is force a clean to restart them or delay printing to defer them.

I have created some SDL diagrams and am part way through a description, so should be posting later today.
It's only morning in this part of the world.

Once you see the SDLs you may like to suggest what tests can be performed.  The most difficult tests relate to the 480 hour timer, because it's such a long time to go without printing and you would need to do it several times to test variations.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 26, 2018, 03:17:10 AM
I have uploaded SDLs and a text description document to the following Drop Box link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8j6zm6zwc3pc7xg/AADhGRd_4HTNmyQtX90dFsVla?dl=0

The text document is in rtf format (2 pages) and the SDLs are in gif format (4 pages).

I would have preferred pdf but it was not an option in the application I used to create the SDLs.  Consequently each page of the SDL is a file.  Hence 5 files total.

It may look daunting to some at first, but a lot is duplication and if you read the description in conjunction with the SDLs it should quickly become clear.

I have marked the documents as Issue 1, with the intention of updating as more info comes to light, or errors are identified.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 26, 2018, 06:45:09 PM
Nice work!  One thing I would like to see is what happens if you wait a little over the 120 hour period and then print a nozzle check from the driver.  My first thought would be: if a simple form feed kicks off the cleaning cycle, I'm sure a nozzle check would.  But what IF they were smart enough to reset the counter when you print a nozzle check, figuring that if the user prints a nozzle check and doesn't perform a cleaning cycle, the visual inspection of the nozzle check would be good enough and no user initiated cleaning cycle means that the nozzle check has been confirmed OK?  I'm doubtful, but it might be worth testing.

Edit: I think I just answered my own question.  I realized I hadn't heard a cleaning cycle recently so I just printed a nozzle check.  It did a cleaning cycle before printing the nozzle check.  :(

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 26, 2018, 10:27:25 PM
Mike, you are now in charge of your printer cleaning cycles.
If you noted the time you did the nozzle check the next purge will be due120 hours later, unless you do a manual clean or remove an ink tank for longer than 60s, or there is a major error such as a paper jam.
Just remembered the SDLs don't cover the paper jam case.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 27, 2018, 12:54:06 AM
It seems like Canon's intent was to guarantee that whenever you print, a mini cleaning cycle has been done within the past 5 days.  If that's the case, there will be no way to get around that.  I also assume that the 120 hour counter is hardware based (in the printer) and not driver based.  One way to confirm that might be to wait the 120 hours and then connect the printer to a different computer and make a print: it'll probably run the 120 hour cleaning cycle.  Then reconnect it to the original computer and print: see if it runs another one.  I doubt it: I would bet the counter/timer is in the printer itself.

Edit: I just set my PC date to 6 days in the future and printed a nozzle check: no cleaning cycle.  So that would suggest that the timer is indeed in the printer itself.  Unless there is some hidden Esc code you could send to the printer to reset the timer, I doubt there is any way to defeat the timed cleaning cycles.

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 27, 2018, 01:50:52 AM
I had always assumed it was hardware based, but good to know, from your test, that it almost certainly is hardware based.  By that I mean firmware.

I think if someone was determined to change the timers they could do so by analysing and modifying the firmware.  However, I think the issue here comes back to what you said previously about Canon determining a suitable timer value to avoid print-head clogs.  For pigment inks, it would appear the timers need to be shorter (just my wild assumption).  The problem is that OEM inks cost so much more than 3rd party inks, that us consumers tend to be very sceptical, when we hear the printer making noises that sound anything like cleaning.  When these noises happen just as we send print jobs to the printer and we know we have been printing regularly we get even more sceptical.  Canon would have done themselves a favour to have been up front about how the cleaning happens.  I know I would have been less sceptical.

With my Pro9000, I quickly moved to 3rd Party inks, because of how quickly the first set of carts seemed to empty, and in addition I kept hearing all the noises I assumed were cleaning of the heads and hence using the ink which was not being used on prints.  I now believe I made a mistake because I made quite a few canvas prints, which I gave as presents and was embarrassed when they quickly started to fade.  I did not use any protection spray at the time either.  I have now reprinted them all, mostly with the Pro-100 using OEM and used Hahnemuhle Varnish, which is a roll on.  Hopefully they last a lot longer.  The cost in damaged print-heads, my time and reprinting would have justified staying with OEM.
Bruce



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on June 27, 2018, 01:08:04 PM
I don't hold out a lot of hope for a "hacked" firmware.  I would guess they are code signed with a private key anyway and the effort to crack it would be more than it's worth.  I'm not really concerned about ink usage but rather how quickly the waste ink tank will fill, at which point you basically have to set the printer by the curb for trash pickup.  Then again, at about $75 (net) for the printer, I guess I shouldn't really worry about that either.  ;)

P.S.  I have some year old PC ink prints hanging on my wall that have no observable fading versus a fresh print.  They are on glossy paper and are not in direct sunlight, but if I were to sell prints, I'd go with OEM.

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 28, 2018, 01:01:10 PM
I turned my Pro-100 off on the morning of the 24th June and left it off until 15:!5 today.
I weighed all inks 3 times (ie weighed, lifted off the scales and weighed again) and used the average value.  I then tried to confirm the accumulated time a cartridge can be removed before a purge.  Not easy to do for such a short timer.  Plenty of room for human error.  Particularly if removing and replacing several times in the 60s.  Anyway, long story short, I was at about 55s when the purge happened.  That test was on Group 2 using the Cyan cartridge.  I decided to try again using Group 1, Photo Magenta.  However, this time I got 57s.

I am quite sure the reason for the shortfall is just human error and we can safely assume the timer is 60s.

I have uploaded a spreadsheet to the same Dropbox link where I uploaded the SDLs.  This spreadsheet shows all the ink measurements I have made since I started weighing the cartridges.  For cases where I took multiple reading at the same time, I have averaged the reading.

I have used the following colour coded columns:  Green is the 5 day period, Blue is 120 hour purge and Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s.

I didnít check the data until after I had finished all the tests.  I realised when I analysed the data I had somehow triggered both groups to purge the first time. ie. Column N.  This was supposed to be Group 2 only.  Thinking about possible reasons, I think what happened is that on the 23rd June I noticed the PC cartridge was not plugged in properly just after I replaced the LGY after weighing.  So I suspect when I took the LGY out I accidently pressed the release for the PM cart.  Since I was weighing the cartridges 3 times today it took longer than usual, so this all added up to cause the additional purge.

Just for completeness I sent another Form Feed to the printer at 22:50, to confirm that no further purge was waiting for a print job.  There wasnít any further purge waiting.  There would have been a purge due had I not removed the cartridges for more than 60s.

Bruce
 


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on June 28, 2018, 11:50:59 PM
I forgot to mention that when I powered up yesterday (28th June), it took 50s, whereas previously it has taken 30s, when using the front panel.  There is nothing in the ink levels to suggest more ink was used.
Today I decided to do a manual clean on Group 2 only, just to measure the ink usage.
I have updated the spreadsheet.  For the time being there are 2 spreadsheets.  The one with the "2" in the file name is the latest.  I will delete the other one soon.

The ink used for the manual clean is very similar to when I removed ink carts for Group 2.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 02, 2018, 04:37:41 AM
I have just uploaded Issue 2 of the SDLs and description.

I will explain in detail when my printer timers expire over the next 2 days and I get some data that will (think positive) confirm some of my changes.
The Group 1 timer expires tomorrow and the Group 2 timer expires the next day.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 04, 2018, 04:08:27 AM
I think itís reached a point now where I can sum up how the printer behaves re purge cycles.  I have not done any testing of the 480 hour timer and I donít currently intend to do any such tests.  However, I note that Jose Rodriguez has indicated in a video he uploaded today, that he will do this test.

First I will fill you in on the changes I made to the SDLs a few days back:  The test results from 28th and 29th June suggested to me that one of my assumptions had been incorrect.  My assumption had been that the volume of ink purged for a Manual purge, a 120 hour purge and an ink cart removal were the same.  I decided to go back to the Pro9000 Service Manual to see if I had missed something.  When I first looked at the Service Manual I cherry picked the items I was interested in at the time, since there are several cases listed which invoke a purge.  For example if you remove the printhead and replace it with a different head you get different levels of purge than replacing the same head.  When you first setup the printer there is a significant purge.  For the Pro9000 the manual clean and a cartridge removal result in a purge of the same level.  However, a 120 hour purge results in about a 21% less purge than the manual purge. One reason I missed the above difference was that I was looking at the duration of a purge (easy to test), which is the same for all 3 types of purge for the Pro9000.

There were 3 main changes to the SDLs:  The first change was to assign an extra value to P1 and P2.  ie.  0, 1, 2, and 3 representing: No Purge, Low Purge, Medium Purge and High Purge respectively.  Where Low is for the 120 hour, Medium is for a Manual or Cart removal and High is for Deep Purge (480 hour or Deep Manual).  The second change was to handle error cases such as Paper Jam and the 3rd change was to expand out the case for a manual purge request while a purge was pending.

Anyway,  I had a 120 hour Group 1 purge yesterday (3rd July) and a 120 hour Group 2 purge today.  I have updated and uploaded the spreadsheet (Issue 3) with the new data, which helps to confirm that the 120 hour purge uses slightly less ink than the manual or cart removal purges.  As mentioned previously, I have used colour coded columns, in the spreadsheet, to easily identify the amount of ink lost in either a purge or between tests.  Since I recently added a column for manual purges I will define them here again:

Green is the period between tests (usually 5 days but sometimes less), Blue (Cyan) is a 120 hour purge, Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s and Magenta is a manual purge.  

 Of some interest is that my Yellow cart started flashing yesterday after the Group 1 purge and my Grey started flashing today after the Group 2 purge.  Hence they both now are shown as ďink lowĒ via the printer driver.  The yellow went low while transitioning from 18.87g to 18.62g, whereas the grey went low while transitioning from 19.03g to 18.74g.  So, it would appear that the ink low warning happens around 18.8g.  You can actually tell when it is going to happen because you can see the small amount of ink left in the tank side of the cart just before it happens.

I will use the current carts until they run out, based on recommendations from Jose Rodriguez. I intend storing the old carts in case I decide to refill in future.  I have bought a full set of OEM replacements and plan to weigh full and empty carts when I do the swap, this will allow me to get a better cost estimate of the purges.  I also plan to confirm there is no purge when I change the cartridge.  Until now, all my testing of cartridge removal is when the printer is registering some level of ink in that cartridge.  An empty cartridge may trigger a different response.  However, based on the Pro9000 Service Manual, I am no expecting any difference.

Here is my summary of the data in the spreadsheet, for the Pro-100S:

1.   With the exception of a manual purge, if a purge of one group takes place, a small amount of ink is lost in the other group.  Suggests keeping the 2 group purges synchronised is worthwhile if they are only a day or 2 apart.  (Note: I have only performed a single manual purge and it was on group 2 only)

2.   The average ink purged for a 120 hour purge of both groups is 1.995g (call it 2g). It is not evenly dispersed over the 2 groups, but the difference is quite small (4.6%) and may balance out over a longer period of testing.  This figure does not include ink lost in a group not being purged during a single group purge.

3.   The average ink purged for a manual purge or cartridge removal in both groups is 2.21g (call it 2.2g).  Hence about 10% more for a medium purge versus a low purge.  Again it is not evenly dispersed between group 1 and group 2 (5.5% difference), but in this case it is reversed, in that the group 2 loss is slightly higher than group 1.

4.   Looking at columns L and V we see how much ink was lost over 5 days, when no print jobs were sent to the printer.  Column L is for power off  and column V is for power on.  Total ink lost was 0.18g and 0.06g respectively.  Just to confuse the picture, column R is for a single night with power on, which lost 0.11g.  Column F adds a tiny bit more data, but only represents one cartridge for when the power was turned on and off over the 5 days.  I would have to say the data is inconclusive and tend to think itís the test itself that causes the ink loss.  ie.  The uncapping and recapping of the printhead. The same explanation could apply to point 1. above.  ie.  Ink lost in groups not being purged.

For items 1 and 2 above, if the ink lost during a purge which is in a group not being purged at that time is included in the figures, the total figures are 2.08g (120 hr purge) and 2.38g (Cart removal).

I have not actually printed on paper since 17th June.  All purges were induced by sending Form Feeds to the printer.  I still canít say whether it is worth turning the printer off after use or leaving it on permanently.  I donít believe there is a purge as a result of turning the printer off and then on, since the ink lost is very small and similarly a small amount is lost even if you leave the printer on continuously.

If we compare the test results for the Pro-100S to the Service Manual for the Pro9000, we get:
- Pro-100S:  2.0g/2.2g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)
- Pro9000: 1.9g/2.3g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)

For the Pro9000 a Deep (Heavy) Clean uses 3.8g, so we can expect about a 4.0g purge for the Pro-100.  In this case the Service Manual shows the same level for a Manual Deep clean and a 480 hour deep clean.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on July 05, 2018, 02:09:46 PM
Bruce,

First, this seems timely since we went to see "The First Purge" in the theater yesterday.  :D

Thanks for doing such thorough research!  Let me see if I can summarize what your findings mean for the average user, based on how they are using their Pro-100.  Please let me know if I have interpretted your results correctly!

These observations are based on my interpretation of your results being that each 120 hour purge uses roughly .25ml (mg) of ink from each cart and a 480 hour purge using about double that (0.5ml).  And... my research indicates there is about 13ml of ink in each CLI-42 cart.  This means:

If you print nothing but a form feed every 5 days: you'll be out of ink due to 120 hour purge cycles in under 9 months.
If you print nothing but a form feed every 20 days: you'll be out of ink due to 480 hour purge cycles in a little under 18 months

In order to figure out how much ink is used versus regular photo printing, I was able to find a generic rule of thumb that says most inkjet printers use around 1ml of ink per square foot which equates to about .56ml per 8x10.  .56ml divided by 8 carts would be about .07ml per cart for an 8x10 that has evenly distributed colors.  While this doesn't really work in real life (some colors are used more than others), I suppose those figures are OK to use for a long term average.

So if an 8x10 uses .07ml per cart averaged over time, the ink used by one 120 hour purge equates to between three and four 8x10 photo prints.  We'll call it four for the sake of simplicity.

HEAVY USER: For a heavy user who is printing batches of 8x10 or even larger prints every couple days, the purge doesn't cause much waste versus what is actually being printed.

OCCASIONAL USER:  For the occasional user, the ink usage of the purges becomes significant: even if you print one 8x10 photo print per day, on day 6 (5 depending on timing) you will have printed six 8x10 prints and "lost" four to the purge.  And if you only print on average one 8x10 per week (I'll nickname this group the "wallhangers"), you will get one 8x10 print and you will have lost the equivalent of four 8x10 prints to the purge.  For the occasional user who prints one 8x10 per week, you will only get to use 25% of your ink (75% of your ink is going to purge cycles).

RARE USER: On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you use your Pro-100 as a generic "only when I need something" printer, printing a mix of text documents or small forms maybe once a week and the occasional photo, you won't get much printed material out of your printer and most of the ink will end up being used for the 120 hour purge cycles.  In such cases where you print maybe a couple one page text docs per week and a rare 8x10 photo, the most you can expect out of a batch of ink is probably 8 months or in reality, less before you have to replace at least one cart.

Does the above sound logical?  I think however you look at it, the more photos you put through your Pro-100, the less significance the purge cycles will have (less ink used by purge cycles versus what you actually got out of the printer).

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 05, 2018, 11:38:55 PM
Yes Mike, your interpretation is correct.
The only thing I can add is that Red River have done extensive analysis of the ink cost of many printers, including the Pro-100.
Here is the one for the Pro-100:  http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing-canon-pro-100.html

Red River admit their costs do not include purge costs.
However, the Red River analysis does provide an indication of ink usage on various size prints.  Based on the Red River figures an 8x10 uses 0.668ml per 8x10. Versus your 0.56ml per 8x10.
So I guess the Pro-100 uses more ink than the average printer.
Here is the maths I used:  Red River determined the Pro-100 uses 0.000643 cartridges per square inch.  Multitply by 80 (squ inch per 8x10) gives 0.05144 cartridges per 8x10.  Multiply by 13ml per cart gives the above 0.668ml.
Red River also mention they assumed a 95% coverage.

A graph, or table combining the Red River costs per print plus purge costs, mapped against usage, would probably gives users an idea of their true costs per print.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on July 06, 2018, 07:45:52 AM
Mike

Thanks for the summary, most helpful.

Thanks to Bruce for effort put into this subject.

Where does it leave me?  I have followed advice from my yachting days.

If you have to count the cost don't take up yachting and if you must take up yachting don't count the cost.

That sums up my position with photo printing.

My 100S is producing first class pints on 10 pence (£) a sheet paper, they are as good as if not better than the screen is showing.

Jeff 



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Fred A on July 06, 2018, 09:00:57 AM
Quote
My 100S is producing first class pints on 10 pence (£) a sheet paper, they are as good as if not better than the screen is showing.

Hear Hear!!

Fred


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on July 06, 2018, 01:13:13 PM
Since I use 3rd party inks, I don't even bother calculating ink wastage because the cost of ink is almost in the noise.  What I neglected to mention in my ink analysis was the waste ink tank.  In my worst case "no one would ever do this" scenario where you print a form feed every 5-6 days, you also have to consider that you've moved 13x8 or 104ml of ink to your waste ink tank in about 9 months.  I don't know how much ink the waste ink tank holds but when it's full, your printer has reached the end of its life being a Canon.  So if your primary concern is filling your waste ink tank and you only occasionally print photos, I'd say your best workflow might be to only print when you need to since printing regularly will result in 2ml of ink going to the waste tank with each of those light purge cycles (every 5 days).

In fact, even if you are a regular printer who prints photos every few days, you may go through a few sets of carts in 9 months but you are still going to end up with 104ml of ink (an entire set of ink) in that 9 month time period in your waste tank because it's going to do the light purge cycle every 5 days regardless.

Final thought: I guess if Canon keeps up the rebates, the cost of a new Pro-100 is less than a set of ink anyway, so who cares?

Food for thought.  ;)

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on July 06, 2018, 02:41:12 PM
We do not have the buying power of the USA

Our price is printer - £359.00

Ink - £86.57 inc VAT for set of 8

Just keep on printing and enjoy qimage.

Jeff



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on July 06, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
BruceW77 & admin

Thanks for all the info and effort you both put into this.

I was following the print every couple of days theory.
Following that theory, I get approx 15 prints for the month.

So if I'm understanding all the info in this thread :

it would be better to print all 15 images on one day and have printer powered on once,
than to print one every couple days and have the printer on and off multiple times ?


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 12, 2018, 11:24:06 AM
Sorry dannac, I just realised you probably wanted an answer to your post.
I don't think the powering on and off makes a lot of difference to the ink used.  Without looking at the power consumption specs, I doubt the printer uses that much power in standby.
If I were you I would probably spread the printing out so that the printer does not go longer than say 2 weeks without a purge.  In fact I would probably build up to that by starting at 8 or 10 days and send a nozzle check or purge sheet to initiate the purge and confirm no clogged nozzles.

I was not expecting to be reporting this so soon, but my Gray cart reported empty today.
So I measured the weight of the full gray cart and the empty gray cart giving a figure of 9.49g.  I was expecting more like 13g from what I had heard around the traps.  I am guessing it is because the cart still has some usable ink and the printer driver will probably continuously pester me to change the cart every time I try to print, but may still let me print.

After replacing the empty cart with a full cart, I sent a Form Feed to the printer.  There was no purge, which is interesting, because the Pro-100 User Manual says there will be a purge.  However, as already mentioned in this thread, the Pro9000 Service Manual indicates the purge will only happen if a cart is removed for more than 60s.  I probably only took 10s.

So now we know there is no variation to the purge procedure if the printer (driver?) has determined there is an Empty Cart.
I have updated and uploaded the spreadsheet, which also contains the recent purge of both group 1 and group 2, which I synchronised by delaying printing until both groups 120 hour timers expired.

Bruce



Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 13, 2018, 03:31:39 AM
... my research indicates there is about 13ml of ink in each CLI-42 cart. 

Based on the fact that only 9.5g of the 13g is used (ie.  3.5g is thrown away), your 9 months drops back to just 6 months for the 120 hour purge timer.
Similarly the 480 hour timer would give you 12 months.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on July 13, 2018, 12:26:32 PM
Sorry dannac, I just realised you probably wanted an answer to your post.
I don't think the powering on and off makes a lot of difference to the ink used.  Without looking at the power consumption specs, I doubt the printer uses that much power in standby.
If I were you I would probably spread the printing out so that the printer does not go longer than say 2 weeks without a purge.  In fact I would probably build up to that by starting at 8 or 10 days and send a nozzle check or purge sheet to initiate the purge and confirm no clogged nozzles.


Thanks for the reply Bruce.

I will try something similar.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on July 13, 2018, 02:55:08 PM
... my research indicates there is about 13ml of ink in each CLI-42 cart.  

Based on the fact that only 9.5g of the 13g is used (ie.  3.5g is thrown away), your 9 months drops back to just 6 months for the 120 hour purge timer.
Similarly the 480 hour timer would give you 12 months.

Bruce

Right.  And based on those numbers, each 120 hour purge uses 2.5% of each ink cart.  So translating this to what happens when printing...

If you print frequently, producing many prints each week, the purge cycles won't have much of an effect because by the time you get to a purge cycle, you may have already printed several dozen prints.  Meaning that... the "ink loss" for each purge is small relative to what you are actually printing.

If you print infrequently, let's say one 8x10 per week, you'll get one purge cycle followed by one 8x10 each time.  That works out to 0.25ml from each cart for the purge and .125ml from each cart (on average) for the 8x10 which uses approx. 1ml of total ink (divided by 8 carts).  So printing one 8x10 per week (assuming you print around the same day each week) would result in .375ml of ink being used per cart.  At 10ml of ink per cart before the cart starts complaining it's low, that gives you 26 8x10 prints over 6 months before most (if not all) inks are showing low if you print one 8x10 per week.  In reality, likely less before at least one ink color is showing low because your 8x10 prints will likely use more of some colors and less of others.

If you print infrequently as above (four 8x10 prints per month) but you decide to skip a week and print two 8x10 prints every 2 weeks instead of one per week, you'll get one 120 hour purge cycle and two 8x10 prints each session.  That's 0.25ml of ink per cart for the purge and 0.25ml of ink per cart for the two 8x10 prints (again, a rough average assuming equal distribution of colors in the print) for a total of 0.5ml of ink per cart for the two 8x10 prints.  In this case (printing two 8x10's every 2 weeks instead of one per week), you'll get 40 8x10 prints over about 9 months before each cart is "theoretically low".

In these examples, printing one 8x10 per week gets us about 26 prints out of a set of carts (max) while printing the same number of prints but skipping a week between each print job (two every two weeks) gives us 40 8x10's.  We've gotten 1.5 times the number of 8x10 prints out of a set of carts just by skipping a week between printing sessions.  So where does this leave us?  Does it mean we should all wait and batch up as many prints as possible per job?  If we do that, might it be prudent to print a nozzle check before printing each time and making sure that is clear before proceeding since we are printing infrequently?  If we print when we want with no "schedule" nor do we want to keep track of it, should we still print unclog/purge sheets, particularly if we use third party inks?  I think these are the bottom line questions and since I don't have the answers, I'll leave those answers to the hardware guys like Jose.  :)

For me, at the moment, I'm still printing unclog sheets every 2 days because I use third party inks and the ink cost is negligible to me.  And I don't know if third party inks tend to clog faster than OEM so being safe seems logical: I don't want to be printing with clogged nozzles because my third party inks have developed a clog that I didn't notice before the next 5 day purge: that could ruin the print head.

Now if I was using OEM inks and wanted to make sure I get the most out of the ink, honestly I might do away with the purge sheets and just try to batch up my prints when possible.  I don't think it's worth "going anal" over personally: I wouldn't keep a tight schedule or worry about when the last purge happened; it's just not worth the effort.  Instead, I'd probably just batch prints when convenient.  For example, if I know I have a print that I want to hang on the wall or show at a club meeting at the end of the month, I might not print it now if I don't intend to hang it right away... or I might wait closer to the end of the month (closer to the club meeting) because by then, I might have a couple more new ones to print and I can print several in one batch.

Suffice it to say, if you really want to get the most (prints) for your ink, just batch print when convenient.  I know I've printed one 13x19 knowing that I'll hang it or frame it when I get time... and knowing that will be some days later.  With this new knowledge about purge cycles, if I was on OEM ink, I would not print piecemeal like that: I'd wait until I have the time to actually do something with the prints and by that time, I might have two or three new ones I also want to print and I can do several in one batch.  Of course, if you use your Pro-100 as a "workhorse" and you are also printing receipts, online payment invoices, and other documents on a regular basis, this all goes out the window because those will "wake up" the printer to print and cause purge cycles in between your photos.  So in a case like that, when printing is unpredictable, I'd be tempted to not worry about the purge cycles at all and just use the printer.  :)

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 14, 2018, 01:51:34 AM
I have a crazy idea, which could potentially save OEM ink users a some cost in ink:
What if we save our empty carts until we have 4 empty carts for any specific colour.  That means we have 4 x 3.5ml of stored OEM ink.
We then extract the ink from 3 of those carts, using a modified plastic clip like Jose uses to clean OEM carts for refilling.  This extracted ink is then injected into the 4th empty cart.   Assuming we can get as much as 3.1ml out of the 3 carts we get:
- (3 x 3.1) + 3.5 = 12.8ml.   In the long term it works out less than 4 carts because the refilled cart also yields 3.5ml to be refilled again.

I think I will run this past Jose.   One issue may be that the Canon instructions recommend using a cart within 6 months.
Sure it's a bit of messing about but it looks to me like a viable option to encourage those who want to use OEM to continue doing so.
The only additional cost would be the chip resetter and the plastic clips and syringes.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 14, 2018, 02:44:58 AM
An improvement to the above idea:

When your cart gets to a figure of say 70% full, reset it and fill it with the 3.1ml from the previous empty.
That way the ink is not going to hang around for as long, with heaps of empties to store.
The exact refill point needs some experimentation if relying on the print driver advice about ink level.  Weighing will give a good indication.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on July 14, 2018, 04:54:08 PM
Quote
Suffice it to say, if you really want to get the most (prints) for your ink, just batch print when convenient.

Mike

That's what I'm going to try next and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the explaining.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on July 19, 2018, 01:10:17 PM
My 120 Hour Purge was due 2 days ago, but I delayed it until today.  I have uploaded the latest spreadsheet.

I think it worth pointing out that the average total ink used for a 120hour purge is now 1.83g.  Down from about 2.0g.  I think that is because the last few purges were for both groups at the same time.  I think I said it previously but keeping the 2 group purges synchronised tends to be more economical.

If you have not already seen it, I started a new thread discussing the ink left in a cart reported as empty by the print driver.  You may want to check that out.

In a previous post I said I did not think the Pro-100 would draw much power in standby mode.  I looked up the specs and it uses 2.1W in standby.  If your power company charged 4 cents per Kwh it would cost about 75 cents a year to leave the printer on permanently in standby.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on July 19, 2018, 03:46:13 PM

In a previous post I said I did not think the Pro-100 would draw much power in standby mode.  I looked up the specs and it uses 2.1W in standby.  If your power company charged 4 cents per Kwh it would cost about 75 cents a year to leave the printer on permanently in standby.

Bruce

Here in the UK on our two part tariff is about twice USA costs

that would work out at about £1.84, if that saved any ink it would be well worth leaving switched on.

Jeff


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on July 29, 2018, 03:58:58 PM

In a previous post I said I did not think the Pro-100 would draw much power in standby mode.  I looked up the specs and it uses 2.1W in standby.  If your power company charged 4 cents per Kwh it would cost about 75 cents a year to leave the printer on permanently in standby.

Bruce

Here in the UK on our two part tariff is about twice USA costs

that would work out at about £1.84, if that saved any ink it would be well worth leaving switched on.

Jeff

Further thoughts on this.

What difference does it make switching off at mains or leaving  mains on and switching off via front panel.

Is there a battery back up keeping the clock going all the time?

I cannot see anything specific about this in previous posts, but I may have missed it.

At present I leave printer with mains on and use the front switch.

But we have supply via miles of overland wires on posts and suffer frequent short (10 seconds) to longer periods of loss of supply.
also I have a very keen earth leakage circuit breaker, which trips at any mall function, tungsten bulb bowing, the slightest ark on a switch etc.

jeff


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Fred A on July 30, 2018, 12:28:16 PM
Quote
Further thoughts on this.
Not to carry on ad nauseam , but I wondered if anyone has ever done a study on the viscosity of the solvent  chemicals used in 3rd party inks?
I never really had an answer that sounded 100% factual.
Some say that the non OEM solvents allow the ink to  thicken and clot and clog heads and nozzles. Some say, not true. Good quality cleaning solvents in the inks are easy. Matching colors  is the difficult part, and matching chemical actions to the paper surfaces.
Has anyone done any testing?

Just wondering.

Fred


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on August 01, 2018, 02:01:35 AM
Quote
Is there a battery back up keeping the clock going all the time?
I don't believe there is a battery backup.  Although I have never taken the cover off the Pro100 to see.  When you power off via the front panel there is a 0.4W power consumption, compared to the 2.1W when the printer is left in standby mode.

The Pro9000 Service Manual advises: "If the print head has not been capped before power-on" there will be a 3.8g purge (taking 115s).  That is equivalent to a Deep Manual clean.  I am very confident the Pro100 is going to do something very similar.  What it implies is you should always turn off via the front panel before powering off at the mains, otherwise when you next power up it will/could perform a Deep purge (possible exception is case ii below).  The Service Manual makes no comment about what happens if you did power off via the front panel and then turned off at the mains.  You could imply that no purge will occur when you power back on, but there is an element of risk.

I did perform a test of powering off at the mains, after powering off via front panel, back in post #2, but that was before I started weighing carts.  All I can report is that the noises lasted 60s compared to the normal 30s when the mains power is left on.  So something extra is definitely happening, but possibly not a Deep purge, since that would require about 115s.

In an earlier post I also included some comments I received from Canon Support, in answer to my questions.  I did not post any of the first reply I got because I knew some of it was incorrect.  Here is an extract from that reply, which I still would tend to take with some doubt:
"Also, only turn the printer off using the power button.  If you turn the printer by disconnecting the power, either from a wall switch or power strip,  a purge will occur every time you turn it on."

So I believe there are 3 scenarios that need to be considered:
i.   Loss of mains power after a print is complete but prior to printhead being capped (typically 60s after print, 30s of activity).
ii.  Loss of mains power after the printhead has been capped, while in standy mode.
iii. Loss of mains power after power down via front panel switch.

Case i. with definitely result in a deep purge.
Cases ii. and iii. appear to be very similar and may not result in a purge.

So if I am correct, and case i is the only case to be concerned about, then I don't think changing your workflow is going to solve or even improve your situation.

What may be worth looking into are spark quenchers or get a sparky to look at your earth leak circuit breaker.

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on August 01, 2018, 08:20:17 AM
Thanks for that detailed reply.

Most of our power outages are weather related, thunder storms and high winds during which I tend to keep off computer activities.

User outages are not likely at same time as computer is running.

So I will cease to worry.

Jeff


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on August 01, 2018, 09:15:54 AM
Quote
I wondered if anyone has ever done a study on the viscosity of the solvent  chemicals used in 3rd party inks?
I think you would be doing well to get an answer to this question.  Thinking it through, the most likely source of such a study would be a 3rd Party ink supplier, as they would have the resources and the inclination.
JToolman has a close working relationship with Precision Colors, so maybe worth asking him what he can find out.

Somewhat related to this question, I have seen on another forum a member claiming to have used Precision Colors ink in Pro100 printers until the waste pads became full at 25,000 prints.
The one caveat here is that the printers are obviously in constant use which means the printheads don't get much time for ink to dry.  See this post: https://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/refilling.11808/page-3#post-100646

Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on August 02, 2018, 03:08:36 AM
I have updated the spreadsheet for last weeks 120 hour purge, which I have been delaying on sending the print job to initiate the purge, so they have been weekly.
So another purge is already overdue and I plan to delay for a few more days.

I now have enough data to be more specific about the difference between a synched and unsyched 120 hour purge:
A Synched Grp1 & Grp2 purge will purge an average of 1.78g total.  (This compares to the 1.9g specified for a Pro9000)
An Unsyched purge will purge an average of 2.08g total.

That represents an increase of almost 17%.

I have seen on another forum that the amount of ink purged depends on the level of ink in the cartridge, but I see no evidence of that.

I don't have enough data to compare synched and unsynched Manual purges or purges related to cartridge removal.  However, these are all user initiated and would tend to be rare compared to the 120 hour purges.

Also, I have now replaced 5 of the 8 cartridges.  I waited to replace the first 2 carts until the printer driver reported "Empty".  The last 3 carts I swapped over when the printer driver reported "Low".   I have colour coded these levels in the spreadsheet.  Orange is Low and Red is Empty.  The reason I swapped over on Low rather than Empty is that I plan to try refilling using reclaimed ink from OEM carts.  See my other thread on "Wasted Ink" for progress on that aspect.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on August 15, 2018, 02:18:55 AM
I have updated the spreadsheet for today's 120 hour purge.  I actually stretched the period out to 470 hours.
I did not wish to push it past the 480 hours, as that is expected to invoke a deep purge.
I performed a nozzle check and all is well.

As expected there was no evidence that there is any timer between the 120 hour known purge and the suspected 480 hour purge.

The purged volume of ink was slightly higher that previous 120 hour synchronised group purges.  But I was expecting that because I had removed several ink tanks multiple times to both weight and photograph the actual ink reservoir.  The purpose of these actions was related to investigating the ink monitor(s).  I will post a new thread on that soon.
The ink volumes were very similar to those experienced with exceeding the 60s cart removal timer, so nothing significant.

At this stage I see no value in continuing to update the spreadsheet, as the data is quite stable and I have no desire to exceed the 480 timer.  One thing I did notice is that this time the Yellow cart lost a bit more than the others in-between purges.  Typically this loss is say 0.02g or 0.03g, but this time the yellow lost 0.13g.  I have no explanation other than it may be related to me removing the cart several times.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on August 22, 2018, 01:37:29 AM
I have uploaded the latest version of the spreadsheet.  There is no new data.  I just wanted to tidy it up by adding a Key, and some tables which analyse the data.

I noticed a slight error in the colour code on the last update, which I also fixed.

The tables below all the recorded data are as follows:

On far left there are 2 small tables which just calculate average ink purged for various purge types.
Table A is a cartridge summary calculation of Full, Empty, Usable and unused ink.
Table B is a snapshot of data related to the ink monitor at the point it transitions from 70% empty to 80% empty.
Table C is the actual ink levels at the time the Low Warning is displayed, which coincides with the transition to 90% empty.

I was trying to determine how accurate the ink monitor was at low ink levels.  See my other thread on this topic.
It's been a while since I included a link to the spreadsheet so to save you looking, here it is again:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8j6zm6zwc3pc7xg/AADhGRd_4HTNmyQtX90dFsVla?dl=0

 


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on October 05, 2018, 11:52:57 PM
I know I said I did not intend testing the 480 hour timer.  However, it was an itch that needed to be scratched.  Not so much to know the value of the timer or even the volume of ink purged.  I really wanted to know what happens if the 480 hour timer expires and a normal manual purge is performed before a print job is sent to the printer.  Could we fool the system into ignoring the 480 hour timer, which results in a deep purge, by simply doing a medium level manual purge?

Unfortunately the answer is; ďNoĒ.  If the 480 hour timer has expired, and a normal purge is requested, the printer actually does a deep purge and resets the purge timer.

Before I started these long duration tests I rechecked my recollection of the Canon Pro 100S printer manual, which states on page 268:
ďWe recommend you use the printer at least once a monthĒ

What I do is print what ever I have ready in the period before the 120 hour purge timer expires, which means there will be no purge for these prints.  I then hold any further prints until I am ready to accept the pending purge.  So my first test was to test that the 480 Hr timer did exist and how much ink was purged.  This period started on 23rd Aug and ended on 12th Sept.  Hence I was able to print until 28th Aug without initiating a purge.  The period of time without printing was 15 days, well under the month recommended by Canon.  I concluded the test period in my usual way, by sending a page feed to the printer to force the purge and then did a Nozzle Check

My second test period was from 12th Sept until 4th Oct.  ie.  22 days.  This time the period without printing was 17 days.  Again, very safe.  This time I concluded the test period with a ďNormal Manual CleanĒ followed by a Nozzle Check.

Both Nozzle Checks were fine.

Of course I weighed the cartridges before and after each purge.

The fist test gave a total purge of 3.63g or an average of 0.45g per cart.
The second test gave a total purge of 3.49g or an average of 0.44g per cart.

I have updated the SDLs and also uploaded the latest ink usage spreadsheet.

Here is a summary of the Pro-100S cleaning modes and amount of ink purged.  The values have been rounded up, to give one decimal place:

1.   Timer 1 cleaning (ie. 120 hours):  Total ink purged, both groups at once = 1.8g
2.   Timer 2 cleaning (ie 480 hours): Total ink purged, both groups at once = 3.6g
3.   Manual Clean: Total ink purged, both groups at once  = 2.2g
4.   Deep (Manual) Clean: Total ink purged, both groups at once  = 3.6g
5.   Ink Tank Replacement: Total ink purged, both groups at once = 2.2g

There are other modes, but they tend to be rare. (eg. replace a printhead)

As mentioned in a previous post, a single group purge is less efficient than purging both groups at once.

For item 5, any one of the ink carts in a group need to be out of the printer for 60s or longer, since the last purge, to initiate the new purge.  You may think that the 4 carts on the left of the printer represent one group but that is not the case.  Group 1 is: PC, M, Y, and PM.  Group 2 is: C, Blk, LGY and GY.  If you look under the printer cover you will see the carts from left to right are: M, PC, Y, Blk, GY, PM, LGY and C.

The labels I use in the SDLs for different levels of purge are: Low, Medium and High, and the action always refers to a group.  The test results indicate that the volume of ink purged across the 2 groups is evenly distributed.  Hence we can just halve the above figures to determine the ink purged in a group.  Consequently Low, Medium and High can now be defined as 0.9g, 1.1g and 1.8g respectively.  As stated in an earlier post, 1g can be assumed to be approximately 1ml.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: dannac on October 08, 2018, 04:51:42 PM
... still at it I see  ;D ;D ;D

Thank you !


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Pappa O on November 27, 2018, 03:27:29 PM
I'm new to the Pixma Pro-100 - I have not even unboxed it yet. However, I have lots of experience with the Epson 1400 and 1430 printers, and I've read this post and seen many of Jose Rodriquez' videos. I have some questions about all this concern over the head cleaning cycles in this printer.

I understand the idea of the printer doing a cleaning every 120 or 480 hours, but is this based on OPERATIONAL hours? If the machine is off for a week, how many hours does that count for? With the Epsons, I've always assumed that it does a cleaning every time you turn it on - at least that is what it sounds like each time it is powered up. If the printer does a cleaning every time it is turned on, I would assume it would be better to just always leave it on and let it do its cleanings as necessary unless you don't print for days on end. However, if the printer caps the head and does not do a cleaning on power up, it would be better to shut it down after each use. What is recommended?

I've also seen reference to the Qimage software for tracking cleanings and, presumably, for doing single channel cleanings. Is this software recommended with the Pro-100? I have a number of final print techniques that I have developed with the Epson printers and have never felt the need for additional software. Does Qimage have a freeware version with just printer utility and logging features?


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on November 30, 2018, 02:11:13 AM
Owning a Pro-100 myself, my advice would be to just unbox it, use it, and not worry about the cleaning cycles.  I look at the information in this thread as just that: information for those with inquiry minds who want to know what their printer is doing and when it will do it.  I leave mine on all the time so that it will just do its thing when it wants to and not cause any additional cleaning due to the printer being powered off or unplugged.  Whenever I print something, if I hear it do a cleaning cycle prior to printing, I know it has been more than 120 hours since the previous cleaning cycle.

Qimage doesn't offer a maintenance-only or free version (other than the timed trial).  Most who are interested in printing photos buy Qimage for the photo printing features and quality; the purge sheets are just a bonus.

Regards,
Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on November 30, 2018, 03:13:47 AM
Pappa O, the 120 hour and 480 hour timers are not based on operational hours.  It is the actual accumulation of time since the last clean cycle, regardless of whether the printer is turned off or on.
So, if the printer did a cleaning cycle today and the printer was then turned off for say 6 days, it would make some noises when turned on but that is not a defined cleaning cycle.  It may use a few drops, but it's very small in comparison to a clean.  If you then did a print, before that print commences the clean cycle would start, which in this case would be the 120 hour purge (ie more than 120 hours but less than 480 hours since the last purge).  From the testing I have done, I have not seen a great deal of difference between turning the printer off when not in use compared to leaving it on, so I tend to just leave it on, since the power consumption is very low.
For me, I like to know how it works so I can organise my printing accordingly and minimise waste ink, especially since I still use OEM ink.  My previous printer was a Pro9000 and it would frustrate the heck out of me when it seemed to do a purge at very regular intervals and went through ink at an alarming rate.  I did not understand how the purge cycles worked in those days, and one mistake I made was to unplug the printer when I refilled the ink (there is a 10 min timer that causes the head to return to the home position). Unplugging the power would have resulted in a deep purge every time I filled ink and I tended to only fill the ink carts that were getting low, resulting in more frequent deep purges. To be clear, the Pro 100 does use a small amount of power when turned off at the machine. The timers probably can't run if power is turned off at the mains, so It probably resets the timers and assumes a deep purge is required. The Pro 100 clearly does not need to purge every 120 hours, so a more economical option, if you don't need to print regularly, is to do your printing in the window of time prior to the 120 hour timer expire and then not print until just prior to the 480 hour timer expiring.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Pappa O on November 30, 2018, 12:51:44 PM
Thanks for the advice. I think I'll just leave it on. I think I can afford 2w per hour ;D As for ink waste, I do plan to go with Precision Colors, so the cost is not such a big issue and it has to be better than the Epson 1400/1430. In my last endeavor I filled the ink cartridges four times before I got everything sorted out and I was able to print a half dozen 11x14s. Calculate the cost per print for those images at OEM prices!


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: admin on November 30, 2018, 06:05:51 PM
My Pro-100 has been on PC inks since I emptied the first set of OEM's.  You may get some inky fingers the first couple times you refill but it's pretty much no hassle.  I just open the top cover and when the head goes center, I unplug it and refill all 8 carts whenever one in the batch goes empty.  There are people who tell you that you need two sets of carts and that you shouldn't leave the head parked center while you refill... but I've never had a problem.  I don't see the need for two sets of carts when, if you have two sets, you'd be refilling one set anyway and shelving them until the next time.  When you get used to it, you can refill (or top off) all 8 carts in about 30 minutes or less.

From my own experience, the most important tip (that I wish I had when starting PC ink refills) is to tip the cart to the needle, not the needle to the cart.  That is, if you keep the cart upright and tip the bottle with the needle on it upside down and then insert into the hole, it almost always creates a bubble at the hole because a drop of ink will leak out of the needle as you tip the bottle.  Then when you start filling, ink bubbles out everywhere.  Instead, tip the (already reset and) empty or partially empty cart on its side (but not far enough so ink leaks out) and then you can tip the ink bottle less than 90 degrees to the side and insert the needle while it is still dry and nothing is dripping out.  Then tip the whole deal (cart and ink bottle) vertical after the needle is already inserted into the hole and only then squeeze the bottle.  That process prevents the ink bubbling at the hole as you try to fill the cart.

Mike


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: siavash82ir on September 01, 2019, 04:05:44 PM
I have updated the spreadsheet for last weeks 120 hour purge, which I have been delaying on sending the print job to initiate the purge, so they have been weekly.
So another purge is already overdue and I plan to delay for a few more days.

I now have enough data to be more specific about the difference between a synched and unsyched 120 hour purge:
A Synched Grp1 & Grp2 purge will purge an average of 1.78g total.  (This compares to the 1.9g specified for a Pro9000)
An Unsyched purge will purge an average of 2.08g total.

That represents an increase of almost 17%.
I have seen on another forum that the amount of ink purged depends on the level of ink in the cartridge, but I see no evidence of that.
I don't have enough data to compare synched and unsynched Manual purges or purges related to cartridge removal.  However, these are all user initiated and would tend to be rare compared to the 120 hour purges.
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Also, I have now replaced 5 of the 8 cartridges.  I waited to replace the first 2 carts until the printer driver reported "Empty".  The last 3 carts I swapped over when the printer driver reported "Low".   I have colour coded these levels in the spreadsheet.  Orange is Low and Red is Empty.  The reason I swapped over on Low rather than Empty is that I plan to try refilling using reclaimed ink from OEM carts.  See my other thread on "Wasted Ink" for progress on that aspect.
Bruce


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: CHoffman on September 03, 2019, 08:29:00 PM
I just use my PRO-100 and feed it factory ink when needed. I don't actually print that much so it can go quite a long time between power-ups. Is the ink usage really in grams? That seems like a lot and you'd need a really big internal sponge after a while to hold it all.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on November 08, 2019, 04:43:14 AM
siavash82ir, your comment seems to be an exact copy of my post #58????


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: BruceW77 on November 08, 2019, 04:47:58 AM
CHoffman, yes the quantities are in grams, which also happens to closely match the ml value.  However, don't forget this is across all 8 cartridges.  So per cartridges it's about 0.24g or 0.24ml.
Sorry for the slow reply, I did not get an email advising there had been a reply on this topic.
By the way, you say; " it can go quite a long time between power-ups".  Canon recommend you use the printer once a month.  I have gone for 5 or 6 weeks without printing, but it is probably getting risky to go beyond 2 months.  I have never had a printhead blockage on my Pro 100S, which is a first for me, having used a number of different printers, both Canon and Epson.


Title: Re: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles
Post by: Jeff on November 08, 2019, 08:41:55 AM
My photography is on temp hold. So no printing,

I run Qimage purge sheet every three weeks or so, never a problem with head blocks. Just a slow ink usage.  Tough.

Jeff