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Author Topic: Canon Pixma Pro-100S Cleaning Cycles  (Read 41421 times)
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« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2018, 12:54:06 AM »

It seems like Canon's intent was to guarantee that whenever you print, a mini cleaning cycle has been done within the past 5 days.  If that's the case, there will be no way to get around that.  I also assume that the 120 hour counter is hardware based (in the printer) and not driver based.  One way to confirm that might be to wait the 120 hours and then connect the printer to a different computer and make a print: it'll probably run the 120 hour cleaning cycle.  Then reconnect it to the original computer and print: see if it runs another one.  I doubt it: I would bet the counter/timer is in the printer itself.

Edit: I just set my PC date to 6 days in the future and printed a nozzle check: no cleaning cycle.  So that would suggest that the timer is indeed in the printer itself.  Unless there is some hidden Esc code you could send to the printer to reset the timer, I doubt there is any way to defeat the timed cleaning cycles.

Mike
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 12:59:40 AM by admin » Logged
BruceW77
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« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2018, 01:50:52 AM »

I had always assumed it was hardware based, but good to know, from your test, that it almost certainly is hardware based.  By that I mean firmware.

I think if someone was determined to change the timers they could do so by analysing and modifying the firmware.  However, I think the issue here comes back to what you said previously about Canon determining a suitable timer value to avoid print-head clogs.  For pigment inks, it would appear the timers need to be shorter (just my wild assumption).  The problem is that OEM inks cost so much more than 3rd party inks, that us consumers tend to be very sceptical, when we hear the printer making noises that sound anything like cleaning.  When these noises happen just as we send print jobs to the printer and we know we have been printing regularly we get even more sceptical.  Canon would have done themselves a favour to have been up front about how the cleaning happens.  I know I would have been less sceptical.

With my Pro9000, I quickly moved to 3rd Party inks, because of how quickly the first set of carts seemed to empty, and in addition I kept hearing all the noises I assumed were cleaning of the heads and hence using the ink which was not being used on prints.  I now believe I made a mistake because I made quite a few canvas prints, which I gave as presents and was embarrassed when they quickly started to fade.  I did not use any protection spray at the time either.  I have now reprinted them all, mostly with the Pro-100 using OEM and used Hahnemuhle Varnish, which is a roll on.  Hopefully they last a lot longer.  The cost in damaged print-heads, my time and reprinting would have justified staying with OEM.
Bruce

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« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2018, 01:08:04 PM »

I don't hold out a lot of hope for a "hacked" firmware.  I would guess they are code signed with a private key anyway and the effort to crack it would be more than it's worth.  I'm not really concerned about ink usage but rather how quickly the waste ink tank will fill, at which point you basically have to set the printer by the curb for trash pickup.  Then again, at about $75 (net) for the printer, I guess I shouldn't really worry about that either.  Wink

P.S.  I have some year old PC ink prints hanging on my wall that have no observable fading versus a fresh print.  They are on glossy paper and are not in direct sunlight, but if I were to sell prints, I'd go with OEM.

Mike
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2018, 01:01:10 PM »

I turned my Pro-100 off on the morning of the 24th June and left it off until 15:!5 today.
I weighed all inks 3 times (ie weighed, lifted off the scales and weighed again) and used the average value.  I then tried to confirm the accumulated time a cartridge can be removed before a purge.  Not easy to do for such a short timer.  Plenty of room for human error.  Particularly if removing and replacing several times in the 60s.  Anyway, long story short, I was at about 55s when the purge happened.  That test was on Group 2 using the Cyan cartridge.  I decided to try again using Group 1, Photo Magenta.  However, this time I got 57s.

I am quite sure the reason for the shortfall is just human error and we can safely assume the timer is 60s.

I have uploaded a spreadsheet to the same Dropbox link where I uploaded the SDLs.  This spreadsheet shows all the ink measurements I have made since I started weighing the cartridges.  For cases where I took multiple reading at the same time, I have averaged the reading.

I have used the following colour coded columns:  Green is the 5 day period, Blue is 120 hour purge and Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s.

I didnít check the data until after I had finished all the tests.  I realised when I analysed the data I had somehow triggered both groups to purge the first time. ie. Column N.  This was supposed to be Group 2 only.  Thinking about possible reasons, I think what happened is that on the 23rd June I noticed the PC cartridge was not plugged in properly just after I replaced the LGY after weighing.  So I suspect when I took the LGY out I accidently pressed the release for the PM cart.  Since I was weighing the cartridges 3 times today it took longer than usual, so this all added up to cause the additional purge.

Just for completeness I sent another Form Feed to the printer at 22:50, to confirm that no further purge was waiting for a print job.  There wasnít any further purge waiting.  There would have been a purge due had I not removed the cartridges for more than 60s.

Bruce
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 04:10:56 AM by BruceW77 » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2018, 11:50:59 PM »

I forgot to mention that when I powered up yesterday (28th June), it took 50s, whereas previously it has taken 30s, when using the front panel.  There is nothing in the ink levels to suggest more ink was used.
Today I decided to do a manual clean on Group 2 only, just to measure the ink usage.
I have updated the spreadsheet.  For the time being there are 2 spreadsheets.  The one with the "2" in the file name is the latest.  I will delete the other one soon.

The ink used for the manual clean is very similar to when I removed ink carts for Group 2.
Bruce
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2018, 04:37:41 AM »

I have just uploaded Issue 2 of the SDLs and description.

I will explain in detail when my printer timers expire over the next 2 days and I get some data that will (think positive) confirm some of my changes.
The Group 1 timer expires tomorrow and the Group 2 timer expires the next day.
Bruce
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2018, 04:08:27 AM »

I think itís reached a point now where I can sum up how the printer behaves re purge cycles.  I have not done any testing of the 480 hour timer and I donít currently intend to do any such tests.  However, I note that Jose Rodriguez has indicated in a video he uploaded today, that he will do this test.

First I will fill you in on the changes I made to the SDLs a few days back:  The test results from 28th and 29th June suggested to me that one of my assumptions had been incorrect.  My assumption had been that the volume of ink purged for a Manual purge, a 120 hour purge and an ink cart removal were the same.  I decided to go back to the Pro9000 Service Manual to see if I had missed something.  When I first looked at the Service Manual I cherry picked the items I was interested in at the time, since there are several cases listed which invoke a purge.  For example if you remove the printhead and replace it with a different head you get different levels of purge than replacing the same head.  When you first setup the printer there is a significant purge.  For the Pro9000 the manual clean and a cartridge removal result in a purge of the same level.  However, a 120 hour purge results in about a 21% less purge than the manual purge. One reason I missed the above difference was that I was looking at the duration of a purge (easy to test), which is the same for all 3 types of purge for the Pro9000.

There were 3 main changes to the SDLs:  The first change was to assign an extra value to P1 and P2.  ie.  0, 1, 2, and 3 representing: No Purge, Low Purge, Medium Purge and High Purge respectively.  Where Low is for the 120 hour, Medium is for a Manual or Cart removal and High is for Deep Purge (480 hour or Deep Manual).  The second change was to handle error cases such as Paper Jam and the 3rd change was to expand out the case for a manual purge request while a purge was pending.

Anyway,  I had a 120 hour Group 1 purge yesterday (3rd July) and a 120 hour Group 2 purge today.  I have updated and uploaded the spreadsheet (Issue 3) with the new data, which helps to confirm that the 120 hour purge uses slightly less ink than the manual or cart removal purges.  As mentioned previously, I have used colour coded columns, in the spreadsheet, to easily identify the amount of ink lost in either a purge or between tests.  Since I recently added a column for manual purges I will define them here again:

Green is the period between tests (usually 5 days but sometimes less), Blue (Cyan) is a 120 hour purge, Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s and Magenta is a manual purge.  

 Of some interest is that my Yellow cart started flashing yesterday after the Group 1 purge and my Grey started flashing today after the Group 2 purge.  Hence they both now are shown as ďink lowĒ via the printer driver.  The yellow went low while transitioning from 18.87g to 18.62g, whereas the grey went low while transitioning from 19.03g to 18.74g.  So, it would appear that the ink low warning happens around 18.8g.  You can actually tell when it is going to happen because you can see the small amount of ink left in the tank side of the cart just before it happens.

I will use the current carts until they run out, based on recommendations from Jose Rodriguez. I intend storing the old carts in case I decide to refill in future.  I have bought a full set of OEM replacements and plan to weigh full and empty carts when I do the swap, this will allow me to get a better cost estimate of the purges.  I also plan to confirm there is no purge when I change the cartridge.  Until now, all my testing of cartridge removal is when the printer is registering some level of ink in that cartridge.  An empty cartridge may trigger a different response.  However, based on the Pro9000 Service Manual, I am no expecting any difference.

Here is my summary of the data in the spreadsheet, for the Pro-100S:

1.   With the exception of a manual purge, if a purge of one group takes place, a small amount of ink is lost in the other group.  Suggests keeping the 2 group purges synchronised is worthwhile if they are only a day or 2 apart.  (Note: I have only performed a single manual purge and it was on group 2 only)

2.   The average ink purged for a 120 hour purge of both groups is 1.995g (call it 2g). It is not evenly dispersed over the 2 groups, but the difference is quite small (4.6%) and may balance out over a longer period of testing.  This figure does not include ink lost in a group not being purged during a single group purge.

3.   The average ink purged for a manual purge or cartridge removal in both groups is 2.21g (call it 2.2g).  Hence about 10% more for a medium purge versus a low purge.  Again it is not evenly dispersed between group 1 and group 2 (5.5% difference), but in this case it is reversed, in that the group 2 loss is slightly higher than group 1.

4.   Looking at columns L and V we see how much ink was lost over 5 days, when no print jobs were sent to the printer.  Column L is for power off  and column V is for power on.  Total ink lost was 0.18g and 0.06g respectively.  Just to confuse the picture, column R is for a single night with power on, which lost 0.11g.  Column F adds a tiny bit more data, but only represents one cartridge for when the power was turned on and off over the 5 days.  I would have to say the data is inconclusive and tend to think itís the test itself that causes the ink loss.  ie.  The uncapping and recapping of the printhead. The same explanation could apply to point 1. above.  ie.  Ink lost in groups not being purged.

For items 1 and 2 above, if the ink lost during a purge which is in a group not being purged at that time is included in the figures, the total figures are 2.08g (120 hr purge) and 2.38g (Cart removal).

I have not actually printed on paper since 17th June.  All purges were induced by sending Form Feeds to the printer.  I still canít say whether it is worth turning the printer off after use or leaving it on permanently.  I donít believe there is a purge as a result of turning the printer off and then on, since the ink lost is very small and similarly a small amount is lost even if you leave the printer on continuously.

If we compare the test results for the Pro-100S to the Service Manual for the Pro9000, we get:
- Pro-100S:  2.0g/2.2g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)
- Pro9000: 1.9g/2.3g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)

For the Pro9000 a Deep (Heavy) Clean uses 3.8g, so we can expect about a 4.0g purge for the Pro-100.  In this case the Service Manual shows the same level for a Manual Deep clean and a 480 hour deep clean.

Bruce
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 04:20:02 AM by BruceW77 » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2018, 02:09:46 PM »

Bruce,

First, this seems timely since we went to see "The First Purge" in the theater yesterday.  Cheesy

Thanks for doing such thorough research!  Let me see if I can summarize what your findings mean for the average user, based on how they are using their Pro-100.  Please let me know if I have interpretted your results correctly!

These observations are based on my interpretation of your results being that each 120 hour purge uses roughly .25ml (mg) of ink from each cart and a 480 hour purge using about double that (0.5ml).  And... my research indicates there is about 13ml of ink in each CLI-42 cart.  This means:

If you print nothing but a form feed every 5 days: you'll be out of ink due to 120 hour purge cycles in under 9 months.
If you print nothing but a form feed every 20 days: you'll be out of ink due to 480 hour purge cycles in a little under 18 months

In order to figure out how much ink is used versus regular photo printing, I was able to find a generic rule of thumb that says most inkjet printers use around 1ml of ink per square foot which equates to about .56ml per 8x10.  .56ml divided by 8 carts would be about .07ml per cart for an 8x10 that has evenly distributed colors.  While this doesn't really work in real life (some colors are used more than others), I suppose those figures are OK to use for a long term average.

So if an 8x10 uses .07ml per cart averaged over time, the ink used by one 120 hour purge equates to between three and four 8x10 photo prints.  We'll call it four for the sake of simplicity.

HEAVY USER: For a heavy user who is printing batches of 8x10 or even larger prints every couple days, the purge doesn't cause much waste versus what is actually being printed.

OCCASIONAL USER:  For the occasional user, the ink usage of the purges becomes significant: even if you print one 8x10 photo print per day, on day 6 (5 depending on timing) you will have printed six 8x10 prints and "lost" four to the purge.  And if you only print on average one 8x10 per week (I'll nickname this group the "wallhangers"), you will get one 8x10 print and you will have lost the equivalent of four 8x10 prints to the purge.  For the occasional user who prints one 8x10 per week, you will only get to use 25% of your ink (75% of your ink is going to purge cycles).

RARE USER: On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you use your Pro-100 as a generic "only when I need something" printer, printing a mix of text documents or small forms maybe once a week and the occasional photo, you won't get much printed material out of your printer and most of the ink will end up being used for the 120 hour purge cycles.  In such cases where you print maybe a couple one page text docs per week and a rare 8x10 photo, the most you can expect out of a batch of ink is probably 8 months or in reality, less before you have to replace at least one cart.

Does the above sound logical?  I think however you look at it, the more photos you put through your Pro-100, the less significance the purge cycles will have (less ink used by purge cycles versus what you actually got out of the printer).

Mike
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« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2018, 11:38:55 PM »

Yes Mike, your interpretation is correct.
The only thing I can add is that Red River have done extensive analysis of the ink cost of many printers, including the Pro-100.
Here is the one for the Pro-100:  http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing-canon-pro-100.html

Red River admit their costs do not include purge costs.
However, the Red River analysis does provide an indication of ink usage on various size prints.  Based on the Red River figures an 8x10 uses 0.668ml per 8x10. Versus your 0.56ml per 8x10.
So I guess the Pro-100 uses more ink than the average printer.
Here is the maths I used:  Red River determined the Pro-100 uses 0.000643 cartridges per square inch.  Multitply by 80 (squ inch per 8x10) gives 0.05144 cartridges per 8x10.  Multiply by 13ml per cart gives the above 0.668ml.
Red River also mention they assumed a 95% coverage.

A graph, or table combining the Red River costs per print plus purge costs, mapped against usage, would probably gives users an idea of their true costs per print.
Bruce
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« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2018, 07:45:52 AM »

Mike

Thanks for the summary, most helpful.

Thanks to Bruce for effort put into this subject.

Where does it leave me?  I have followed advice from my yachting days.

If you have to count the cost don't take up yachting and if you must take up yachting don't count the cost.

That sums up my position with photo printing.

My 100S is producing first class pints on 10 pence (£) a sheet paper, they are as good as if not better than the screen is showing.

Jeff 

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« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2018, 09:00:57 AM »

Quote
My 100S is producing first class pints on 10 pence (£) a sheet paper, they are as good as if not better than the screen is showing.

Hear Hear!!

Fred
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« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2018, 01:13:13 PM »

Since I use 3rd party inks, I don't even bother calculating ink wastage because the cost of ink is almost in the noise.  What I neglected to mention in my ink analysis was the waste ink tank.  In my worst case "no one would ever do this" scenario where you print a form feed every 5-6 days, you also have to consider that you've moved 13x8 or 104ml of ink to your waste ink tank in about 9 months.  I don't know how much ink the waste ink tank holds but when it's full, your printer has reached the end of its life being a Canon.  So if your primary concern is filling your waste ink tank and you only occasionally print photos, I'd say your best workflow might be to only print when you need to since printing regularly will result in 2ml of ink going to the waste tank with each of those light purge cycles (every 5 days).

In fact, even if you are a regular printer who prints photos every few days, you may go through a few sets of carts in 9 months but you are still going to end up with 104ml of ink (an entire set of ink) in that 9 month time period in your waste tank because it's going to do the light purge cycle every 5 days regardless.

Final thought: I guess if Canon keeps up the rebates, the cost of a new Pro-100 is less than a set of ink anyway, so who cares?

Food for thought.  Wink

Mike
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« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2018, 02:41:12 PM »

We do not have the buying power of the USA

Our price is printer - £359.00

Ink - £86.57 inc VAT for set of 8

Just keep on printing and enjoy qimage.

Jeff

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« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2018, 03:01:35 PM »

BruceW77 & admin

Thanks for all the info and effort you both put into this.

I was following the print every couple of days theory.
Following that theory, I get approx 15 prints for the month.

So if I'm understanding all the info in this thread :

it would be better to print all 15 images on one day and have printer powered on once,
than to print one every couple days and have the printer on and off multiple times ?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 03:59:59 PM by dannac » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2018, 11:24:06 AM »

Sorry dannac, I just realised you probably wanted an answer to your post.
I don't think the powering on and off makes a lot of difference to the ink used.  Without looking at the power consumption specs, I doubt the printer uses that much power in standby.
If I were you I would probably spread the printing out so that the printer does not go longer than say 2 weeks without a purge.  In fact I would probably build up to that by starting at 8 or 10 days and send a nozzle check or purge sheet to initiate the purge and confirm no clogged nozzles.

I was not expecting to be reporting this so soon, but my Gray cart reported empty today.
So I measured the weight of the full gray cart and the empty gray cart giving a figure of 9.49g.  I was expecting more like 13g from what I had heard around the traps.  I am guessing it is because the cart still has some usable ink and the printer driver will probably continuously pester me to change the cart every time I try to print, but may still let me print.

After replacing the empty cart with a full cart, I sent a Form Feed to the printer.  There was no purge, which is interesting, because the Pro-100 User Manual says there will be a purge.  However, as already mentioned in this thread, the Pro9000 Service Manual indicates the purge will only happen if a cart is removed for more than 60s.  I probably only took 10s.

So now we know there is no variation to the purge procedure if the printer (driver?) has determined there is an Empty Cart.
I have updated and uploaded the spreadsheet, which also contains the recent purge of both group 1 and group 2, which I synchronised by delaying printing until both groups 120 hour timers expired.

Bruce

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