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Author Topic: color adjustments in driver not honored  (Read 1631 times)
monty
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« on: February 01, 2019, 11:44:27 AM »

I've been testing Qimage for a few days now and for the most part it's working great but I have one issue I haven't been able to sort out yet.
Before tring Qimage, I would print directly from ON1 Photo Raw and would apply a color adjustment within the printer (Pro-100) driver to bring the output exactly where I wanted it.
While using Qimage, I have tried printing the same photo with and without the color adjustment in the driver (main tab, color/intensity on manual, click set button and adjust to taste) and the prints come out identical.  No other difference in print setup except the manual color adjustment.  Is there some setting in QImage that over-rides the color adjustment in the driver?
I have Matching set to none and a paper specific ICC profile selected within QImage.

Thanks for any assistance.
Peter
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Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2019, 12:07:14 PM »

Quote
etting in QImage that over-rides the color adjustment in the driver?
I have Matching set to none and a paper specific ICC profile selected within QImage.

Thanks for any assistance.
Peter

Hi Peter,
Not 100% sure what you are looking for, but I have a pro 100 (which I love), and can vouch for the proper settings.
If you have proper profiles that match the chosen paper, and the paper type is set to match, (Semi gloss SG 201 when using SG 201), and Quality is set to Max for that paper, Matching set to NONE, and the recommended profile from Canon (for that paper), Rendering to relative colorimetric, and BP on, you will get the colors and shades that are in the image.
If you need adjusting of colors or details, do that in Qumage Refine and Image Edeitor.
Once you tell matching NONE, it relies on the information from Qimage to print.
Fred
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monty
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2019, 01:49:46 PM »

Thanks for the quick reply, Fred.
I used the driver's color adjustment to tweak the output to match my calibrated monitor more closely (prints were a bit dark even after calibrating monitor with ColorMunki Display).
I did try using the adjustments in QImage which seemed to make a similar adjustment but it's more trial and error.  In the Canon driver I used the color adjustment pattern option to judge multiple variations and got my final values that way.  Does QImage have something similar?
The only real difference between my settings and what you listed is that I have been using relative colorimetric instead of perceptual, in order to keep in gamut colors from shifting.  Other than that I am using the ICC profile for the specific paper I am using (my latest test was on Ilford smooth pearl using the Ilford ICC profile) and using the recommended paper type (pro luster I think it was).

Peter.
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Fred A
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 02:18:07 PM »

Quote
used the driver's color adjustment to tweak the output to match my calibrated monitor more closely (prints were a bit dark even after calibrating monitor with ColorMunki Display)

I think I also recommended relative colorimetric
The only place you and I differ, and what is probably a methodology, is that I use the profiled print as being the real output, whereas you seem to assume the monitor screen to be correct.
I was taught that the chemical action of ink on different paper surfaces sometimes changes the reproduction ever so slightly. Proper profiles should compensate somewhat. But what can the monitor use? The only tool might be Softproof.
I'm sure you have printed using "warm" paper, or "blue white" paper etc. It is a personal choice as to what represents the scene to your eye as you see it.
That's why I recommended that you adjust the image, not the print..
Enjoy
Fred
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admin
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 03:19:48 PM »

I tried it on my Pro-100: tried both the regular and XPS driver.  I went to the manual adjustments in the driver and dragged all the sliders all the way to the left and produced a print.  It looked horrendous as expected so the adjustments are working for me.  One thing you might want to do is set your adjustments, click OK to save them in the driver, and then click "Properties" and open the driver again to make sure the adjustments stuck and didn't reset for some reason.

Regards,
Mike
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Terry-M
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2019, 05:11:19 PM »

Hi Peter.
My two pennyworth.
Quote
I used the driver's color adjustment to tweak the output to match my calibrated monitor more closely (prints were a bit dark even after calibrating monitor with ColorMunki Display)
and Fred said:
Quote
I use the profiled print as being the real output, whereas you seem to assume the monitor screen to be correct.
He is correct, If prints are too dark using colour managed printing with a good print profile, then that means the monitor is too bright.
I would think the ColorMunki would allow you set the monitor brightness as part of the calibration process, typically 120 cd/M sq, but it needs a few trial prints to get it right.
I get very good colour match print to monitor  with good shadow detail, and would never adjust the driver which is set to Colour Adjustment OFF.
The whole purpose of using a printer profile is to eliminate any need to make driver adjustments.
Terry

« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 08:16:41 AM by Terry-M » Logged
monty
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2019, 11:41:38 PM »

Terry,
I thought the colorMunki Display would have brought the brightness in line too but even at a brightness setting of 80 (whatever the Display's units are), prints are still a bit darker.

I tried another small print and jacked the manual adjustments way out of whack and the print did come out washed out which I expected but perhaps not to the extent that I thought it would.  The interesting thing is that if I print with the same driver settings from Qimage and ON1 the colors are slightly different.
I understand that it would be best not to enter any manual adjustments but using the ColorMunki calibration it seems like I have to boost the print to get it to be the same.  If I darken my monitor below what the Display recommends, everything gets rather dim.
I'll keep playing with things until I figure it out I guess Smiley

Peter
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monty
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2019, 11:43:55 PM »

Yes, you did recommend relative, Fred.  I guess my morning coffee hadn't kicked in because I could have sworn you wrote perceptual.
I'll do a bit more testing tonight and see what I come up with.

Peter

Quote
used the driver's color adjustment to tweak the output to match my calibrated monitor more closely (prints were a bit dark even after calibrating monitor with ColorMunki Display)

I think I also recommended relative colorimetric
The only place you and I differ, and what is probably a methodology, is that I use the profiled print as being the real output, whereas you seem to assume the monitor screen to be correct.
I was taught that the chemical action of ink on different paper surfaces sometimes changes the reproduction ever so slightly. Proper profiles should compensate somewhat. But what can the monitor use? The only tool might be Softproof.
I'm sure you have printed using "warm" paper, or "blue white" paper etc. It is a personal choice as to what represents the scene to your eye as you see it.
That's why I recommended that you adjust the image, not the print..
Enjoy
Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2019, 08:14:37 AM »

Peter,
Quote
I thought the colorMunki Display would have brought the brightness in line too but even at a brightness setting of 80
That's good, not all calibration software prompts you to set this if it's in "easy" mode. My Eizo monitor with hardware calibration is also set at 80cd/m^2.
I see you are using Ilford Smooth Pearl, a favourite of mine. I buy custom profiles which are usually better than the manufacturers profile although Ilford's have improved in recent years. But I am wondering if your profile is the problem.
Another suggestion to correct dark prints using the existing profile is to make use of QU's Print Filter feature. This makes an adjustment to the print (not via the driver) and does not affect the monitor view.
You create and save the filter in QU's image editor with any image. In your case, adjusting Brightness or Fill are probably what's needed. There are some preset {Q} filters which may do the trick.
See screen shot of Printers and Settings tab attached.
FYI. A QU filter is a non destructive image edit file, usually stored with the image in same folder. Print filters are stored in QU App data.
Also, in QU, you can save printer set-ups, including any Print filter for easy recovery of settings.
Terry
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Terry-M
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2019, 11:22:41 AM »

Peter,
 following my comment
Quote
I buy custom profiles which are usually better than the manufacturers profile although Ilford's have improved in recent years. But I am wondering if your profile is the problem.
I was curious so did a couple of test prints on my Epson R2000, one with a custom profile, the other with the Ilford profile for Ilford Smooth Pearl paper.
There was hardly any difference, both prints were very similar in colour, brightness and shadow detail.
Double check your driver settings as Fred recommended. How about trying some Canon paper and their profile?
Finally, you are using Canon inks I hope?
Terry
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monty
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 03:53:45 AM »

Terry,
I did a series of prints from both QImage and ON1 again using plain glossy photo paper and canon glossy paper profile (I only have 13"x19" Ilford so didn't want to use it up on test prints) and tried multiple variations of settings.
I'm not sure what was different this time around but the results from QImage and ON1 with custom color settings came out identical.  Perhaps it was the image I was using but the difference between normal (all settings zero's out) and customized settings were not as large as I'd seen on other images.
I did reduce the brightness on my monitor slightly - probably around 65-70cd/m^2 and also took your suggestion to use the QU image filter to increased the brightness.  A setting of 4 or 5 seems to bring everything pretty much in line with what I see on screen.  Thanks for that tip.  Is there a way to have that setting applied as a global (automatic) filter on every image I print?
This is a real learning process but I think I'm making progress thanks to everyone's input.

Peter.

Peter,

I see you are using Ilford Smooth Pearl, a favourite of mine. I buy custom profiles which are usually better than the manufacturers profile although Ilford's have improved in recent years. But I am wondering if your profile is the problem.
Another suggestion to correct dark prints using the existing profile is to make use of QU's Print Filter feature. This makes an adjustment to the print (not via the driver) and does not affect the monitor view.
You create and save the filter in QU's image editor with any image. In your case, adjusting Brightness or Fill are probably what's needed. There are some preset {Q} filters which may do the trick.
See screen shot of Printers and Settings tab attached.
FYI. A QU filter is a non destructive image edit file, usually stored with the image in same folder. Print filters are stored in QU App data.
Also, in QU, you can save printer set-ups, including any Print filter for easy recovery of settings.
Terry
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studio2107
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 04:06:09 PM »

I tried it on my Pro-100: tried both the regular and XPS driver.  I went to the manual adjustments in the driver and dragged all the sliders all the way to the left and produced a print.  It looked horrendous as expected so the adjustments are working for me.  One thing you might want to do is set your adjustments, click OK to save them in the driver, and then click "Properties" and open the driver again to make sure the adjustments stuck and didn't reset for some reason.

Regards,
Mike

FYI Interestingly I just recently started having the same problem when using Qimage v2020.111 (Win 10) with the XPS Canon pro-100 driver, IE the settings in the driver don't "stick" to use your description above. I set the color adjustment to none and save and then go back and reopen and the tick box is cleared. I noticed this when trying to using a custom profile I made because of using 3rd party ink. I do not have the problem with the non xps driver. I do not have the problem when printing to the Pro-1000. I do not have that problem when printing directly from Lightroom using the XPS driver, only in Qimage.
Since I can print more important stuff on the Pro-1000 or use the regular driver it is not really an urgent issue for me, but I do like having the option to print using the XPS driver. Didn't know if there was some common thing I needed to change.
Thanks and best wishes.
Jason
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Fred A
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2020, 04:12:24 PM »

Quote
FYI Interestingly I just recently started having the same problem when using Qimage v2020.111 (Win 10) with the XPS Canon pro-100 driver, IE the settings in the driver don't "stick" to use your description above. I set the color adjustment to none and save and then go back and reopen and the tick box is cleared. I noticed this when trying to using a custom profile I made because of using 3rd party ink. I do not have the problem with the non xps driver. I do not have the problem when printing to the Pro-1000. I do not have that problem when printing directly from Lightroom using the XPS driver, only in Qimage.

Mike has tested the Canon pro 100 XPS driver during the year, and has deemed it so buggy that he strongly suggests that you use the standard Pro 100 driver in many forum replies.
Fred
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2020, 04:31:14 PM »

By default, QU will do driver color management for you so it will select "None" for color management in the driver if the "Printer Profile" parameter is set to either "OFF" or a specific profile.  If you selected "Let printer/driver manage color", it will select "ICM" in the driver settings.  For this reason, QU will not allow you to double profile or make a mistake with the color settings in the driver like all other software (such as Photoshop or Lightroom).  This automatic color management is confirmed working with the Pro-100 with both the normal and the XPS drivers.  But if you want to turn off the automatic setting so you can make any selection you like (including making mistakes like double profiling), you can turn off automatic driver color management: click the "Profile Settings" tool button to the right of the "Printer Profile" drop-down and uncheck "Automatically control driver color management when possible".  I don't recommend that, however, because if you have to do that, you are likely trying to do something wrong: like double profiling or selecting "None" in the driver when using "Let printer/driver manage color" in QU.

With all that said, like Fred said, the XPS driver is SO buggy that you should never use the XPS driver in any application other than Canon's Print Studio Pro (where it was designed to be used).  There is no benefit whatsoever to using the XPS driver and the bugs make it unusable in any third party software, particularly when you start getting into large sheet sizes like 13x19 where the page format is really fouled up in the driver.  The bugs are worse in Lightroom, Photoshop and other apps because I've been able to program some workarounds in QU... but it's still not perfect because the XPS driver is simply broken beyond repair!

Regards,
Mike
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studio2107
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2020, 05:17:00 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Jason
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