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Author Topic: color way off  (Read 733 times)
dr5chrome
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« on: December 12, 2019, 05:02:24 AM »

Hello  We loaded the Qimage. Seems fairly simple to operate.

The problem i am having is color and contrast matching.

I went and spent the money on an X rite studio-display monitor calibration.

The monitor didn't seem that much different from how it was prior.

It saved the ICM.

I used this ICM in Qimage. Seemed simple enough.

I haven't in the past ever output inkjet in house, so maybe im missing something, but it all appeared straight forward.

Attached is an estimate of what i am dealing with. These are cell images but the output is FAAAAR away from the monitor.

..maybe a full point of contrast and about 25 points of red. The print is really further off in reality.

Ive tried to turn the mnter profile off, both the same icm for print and mntr. ..7 different prints in all. None of them are close to the monitor. I have 2 printers. I haven't tried tests on the canon pro-100. the inks are expensive. Ive been practicing on an HP ENVY photo, which is a pretty good printer.

Can someone assist?  I need this to work.

best regards. Dave W
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 05:07:22 AM by dr5chrome » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 09:49:17 AM »

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Ive tried to turn the mnter profile off, both the same icm for print and mntr. ..7 different prints in all. None of them are close to the monitor. I have 2 printers. I haven't tried tests on the canon pro-100. the inks are expensive. Ive been practicing on an HP ENVY photo, which is a pretty good printer.

Can someone assist?  I need this to work.

best regards. Dave W

Dave,
Happy to try to help.
There are so many ambiguities in your printing problem that I best skip going over them, and just walk you through the right way    (Canon Pro 100)

Let's start with the driver.
I attached some snaps for you to match.
First driver screen shows Photo print selected  042
043 shows Quality setting to BEST in SET quality
044 shows the color matching set to NONE  (Most important)
045 shows my QU settings just before I click print.

Profiles
RULE 1 The monitor has zero effect on the print.
RULE 2  OK to use the monitor profile where it belongs; in the space marked for Monitor profile
RULE 3 the correct matching printer profile goes in the box marked PRINTER PROFILE, and you can see that I have semi gloss paper selected, so the semi gloss profile from CANON goes in there.
Printer profiles supplied with the driver install.
To easily find the proper profile, click the tiny little arrow to the right of the Printer profile box and select Suggest Profile.

Last rule.... If you set it up properly with printer profile on and color matching NONE.
That will be the proper print,
Fred
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Fred A
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 09:59:47 AM »

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I haven't tried tests on the canon pro-100. the inks are expensive.
Dave,
If you are aware of this, then forget it.
See screen snap.
That is a snap of the Canon  website showing that if you buy 3 cartridges, you receive a box of 20 sheets of top quality paper FREE.
That offsets the 16.95 ea. cost of the ink.
I have so much paper, I am stacking it here
Fred
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 02:35:06 PM »

I don't know which Envy printer you have.  Normally I would tell you to make sure the driver is set to "ICM" mode when using "Let printer/driver manage color" in Qimage's "Printer Profile" selection, but I installed the HP Envy 7850 driver and the driver doesn't even have color management options!  I've never seen a printer that is claimed to be a "photo printer" not offer color management settings so I searched and found this unbelievable response from HP saying that because the printer only has two carts (tri-color and black), it doesn't offer color management:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Inkjet-Printing/Envy-7640-Does-it-allow-Application-Managed-color/td-p/6224218

I doubt the driver even knows how to perform color management.  You could try selecting sRGB as the "Printer Profile" in Qimage and get better results but I think if you're printing photos, you're better off using the Pro-100 that you mentioned.

Regards,
Mike
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 03:02:56 PM »

Thanks allot guys.. !  I will try these.

Ill give some tests to the Canon today.. Maybe it just the HP printer.

Dumb question...  Could the xrite profile be giving me an ICM the does something different than the visual on the monitor?

best regards.  dw
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 09:15:53 PM »

Little bit of an update-

I did some tests on the Canon this morning. Had the same issue.

I had suspect to the X-rite calibration. As a test, I delete all the Xrite out of the computer, including the profiles.

I went back to the default ICM. Rebooted the computer and the printer.
Adjusted the monitor by eye [the xrite calibration was very good visually] .

Fired up lightroom. Did a print. The print was 'very close'.
Fired up Qimage. Did a print. The print was 'very close'.

Ive determined that the x-rite calibration has made an ICM that is visually 'good', but in the same ICM the printer sees something completely different.

Anyone have experience with this?

regards, dw
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 09:36:06 PM »

As Fred pointed out, your monitor profile will have no effect on your prints.  You can put any profile you like in the monitor profile and your prints will be identical regardless of the monitor profile chosen.  What can happen, however, is that a "bad" monitor profile can cause you to edit your images differently which can lead to bad prints.  For example, if your monitor calibration/profile leaves your monitor too bright, it can cause you to edit the images so they look good on the monitor but since the monitor shows the images too bright, the prints of those same images will look too dark when compared to the monitor.  This is a common problem: monitor is too bright and you edit photos so they look good on the monitor.  Then when they print on the printer, the prints look too dark.  In a case like this: the printer is actually the correct rendering: the monitor is just too bright.

But as far as profiles: the monitor profile only affects the monitor and the printer profile only affects prints.

Regards,
Mike
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 11:53:27 PM »

Makes sense, but not how the experience is [see attached]. But that isn't what happened, or should I say, I don't understand how it happened..

If I left all the other settings alone, then just changed the monitor profile in Qimage, the output is different or normal.
How is it that when i change out the xrite ICM [monitor ICM] to the windows default, the print is different ??

Keep in mind, that the monitor view is good, whether xrite does it or my eye [i have a pretty good one].
As I understand by read or vidieo, Qimage or adobe use this ICM... or is that not correct? If not, How is it that the prints i made by 'just' changing the monitor ICM made the prints different? ...allot different.

Should i calibrate the "printer" to get proper print output? ..expensive monitor calibration doesnt seem to be effective in this outcome.

Ive tried everything else. With the Xrite monitor icm in there, its impossible to get a good print

regards, dw





As Fred pointed out, your monitor profile will have no effect on your prints.  You can put any profile you like in the monitor profile and your prints will be identical regardless of the monitor profile chosen.  What can happen, however, is that a "bad" monitor profile can cause you to edit your images differently which can lead to bad prints.  For example, if your monitor calibration/profile leaves your monitor too bright, it can cause you to edit the images so they look good on the monitor but since the monitor shows the images too bright, the prints of those same images will look too dark when compared to the monitor.  This is a common problem: monitor is too bright and you edit photos so they look good on the monitor.  Then when they print on the printer, the prints look too dark.  In a case like this: the printer is actually the correct rendering: the monitor is just too bright.

But as far as profiles: the monitor profile only affects the monitor and the printer profile only affects prints.

Regards,
Mike
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MelW
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2019, 02:43:44 AM »

The only way that makes sense is if you have a setting somewhere such that the printer driver is also grabbing the monitor profile and using it. (Update - that doesn't make much sense either.)
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2019, 03:07:13 AM »

If the prints are different, you are changing something other than the monitor profile.  When you print, at no point is the monitor profile even referenced.  It is ignored completely.  Maybe you'd better specify exactly what you are doing, step by step.  I assume you are actually producing prints (as opposed to going by the soft proof - which does need the monitor profile).

Regards,
Mike
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2019, 04:30:52 AM »

Thus far I am just testing. Yes. Inkjet prints for the wifes studio.

What i am doing is not complicated in the slightest.

1st tests i did nothing but load the same image you see in my 1st post.

The image is good to go. i did nothing to it. its right out of the camera, into Qimage.
I set the correct setting to print. before all of this i ran an X-rite calibration. Qimage saw that at the top.
I let the printer-driver handle the other box. Printed. get screaming red prints.

it was the same on the other computer [the same type/dell] where the canon is. print. same red photos.

Just for the heck of it i removed the xrite and its profile. put in the Adobe-rgb-98. The canon printed like the screen.

After this I find it hard to understand when you say the monitor ICM is ignored. It cant be. the prints changed.

dw



If the prints are different, you are changing something other than the monitor profile.  When you print, at no point is the monitor profile even referenced.  It is ignored completely.  Maybe you'd better specify exactly what you are doing, step by step.  I assume you are actually producing prints (as opposed to going by the soft proof - which does need the monitor profile).

Regards,
Mike
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Fred A
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2019, 09:21:04 AM »

Quote
Ive determined that the x-rite calibration has made an ICM that is visually 'good', but in the same ICM the printer sees something completely different.

Anyone have experience with this?
It still sounds to me that you are using the X rite monitor as a printer profile. That is an absolute NO NO.
I have not heard you mention the Print profile supplied by Canon inserted into the PRINT  PROFILE space in Qimage.
What paper are you using in your Canon 100
I will be happy to email the proper profile to use.
Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2019, 10:27:52 AM »

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It still sounds to me that you are using the X rite monitor as a printer profile. That is an absolute NO NO.
What Fred and others need is a screen shot of your Properties tab. Also click the Properties button and take screen shots of the Driver settings. See below and Fred's screen shots for Canon in Reply #1 above
Terry
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2019, 12:55:54 PM »

Two screen shots like Terry posted showing those settings would help: one before you click print on each of the prints you are comparing.  The reason I was asking for steps is that if you want to see if the monitor profile affects your prints, there is only one way to do that comparison properly:

(1) Set up your print as you like on the live view with your monitor profile selected in "Mntr Profile" top right of the main UI, then print.
(2) Drop down "Mntr Profile" top right of the main UI, select "Choose new profile..." and change it to something different, then click print again.
(3) Compare the two prints.

I was trying to establish if you are doing something different (or adding more steps).  In step 2, you can select any monitor profile you like, even something ridiculous like ProPhoto RGB... or you can even turn it off.  It will have no effect on the prints because QU does not use the monitor profile when printing.  It'll send the exact same data to the printer regardless of what you choose for the monitor profile.

I even traced the code to be sure.  The code never accesses the value in "Mntr Profile" during the print routine (when you click the print button).  It doesn't even know you changed it!  It doesn't care, because the monitor profile has absolutely nothing to do with the print routines.

Mike
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2019, 03:36:41 PM »

I Know.. this is an odd one. Doesnt make sense .

Seems its the Xrite that is causing the problem. The same problem also occurs when making prints from photoshop. If I delete/purge everything X-rite from my systems, the prints come out near normal. I am returning the Xrite unit. Monitor calibration is better by my eye. Ill have to think about getting something to calibrate the printer/profile and leave the screen to my eye. Ive been in the photo biz for decades, but have been in film all that time. The wife is doing the digital stuff. Ive used Xrite densitometers all this time, for B&W and color, they are industry standard. This is what makes this so difficult..

regards, dw


Two screen shots like Terry posted showing those settings would help: one before you click print on each of the prints you are comparing.  The reason I was asking for steps is that if you want to see if the monitor profile affects your prints, there is only one way to do that comparison properly:

(1) Set up your print as you like on the live view with your monitor profile selected in "Mntr Profile" top right of the main UI, then print.
(2) Drop down "Mntr Profile" top right of the main UI, select "Choose new profile..." and change it to something different, then click print again.
(3) Compare the two prints.

I was trying to establish if you are doing something different (or adding more steps).  In step 2, you can select any monitor profile you like, even something ridiculous like ProPhoto RGB... or you can even turn it off.  It will have no effect on the prints because QU does not use the monitor profile when printing.  It'll send the exact same data to the printer regardless of what you choose for the monitor profile.

I even traced the code to be sure.  The code never accesses the value in "Mntr Profile" during the print routine (when you click the print button).  It doesn't even know you changed it!  It doesn't care, because the monitor profile has absolutely nothing to do with the print routines.

Mike
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