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Author Topic: DFS Confusion  (Read 14193 times)
JustGeorge
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« on: April 11, 2017, 03:30:32 AM »

I can't figure out when/how DFS is applied.  I frequently use Qimage for final image processing, whether it's to send it to print immediately or print to file for use later or viewing on another computer.  I've downloaded many of the Qimage video tuts and watched quite a few several times, but I've not been to clarify my confusion.  (FWIW, I'm on a metered internet connection.)

So: for Print to File, I can apply DFS in the image editor, specifying the amount.  But I've also got DFS turned on in the Printing Options dialogue (Edit -> Preferences -> Printing Options).

But then the Print to File dialogue has an option to turn on or off sharpening, plus specify an amount.

So in my befuddled brain I'm thinking that if I apply any DFS in the image editor, I'm also applying a round of DFS (default settings) when I hit Print (whether to paper or file).

I've been processing a bunch of travel photos, and trying to decide if and when to apply DFS at any or all stages, at this point mainly to learn what Qimage can do.  Most images are being "printed to file", with some going to 8x10 test prints.  Eventually, some will be printed on a 13-inch printer.  After a lot of playing around, I still can't arrive at any clarity.

(I like the sharpening routine in the image editor because it lets me see the effects of the sharpening in real time, before applying them.)

So my questions:

1.  If I print to file after applying DFS in the image editor, which DFS settings are being applied to the new image?  The image editor settings, or the Printing Options settings, or both?

2.  In the settings dialogue for printing to paper, there's another setting for sharpening under Processing.  It appears to be the setting as specified in the Printing Options dialogue -- is that correct?  And again, is that in addition to the sharpening applied while editing the image, or does it over-ride previous DFS settings?

One possibility -- probability? -- is that I'm over-complicating this whole thing.

I was perfectly happy with High Pass Sharpening in Affinity Photo/Windows, but after playing around with DFS, High Pass is a bit deficient for some of my keepers.

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.  And please keep in mind that I am easily befuddled.

Thanks in advance,

--JustGeorge
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~I'm not a photographer, but I play one in real life.~
Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 07:06:52 AM »

Hi,
There are 2 sorts of sharpening in QU:-
1. Image Sharpening (DFS) set in the editor. This is normal  sharpening for the image as you see it on screen.
2. Print "smart" sharpening applied when an image is printed and normally set once in Preferences on the Settings tab. The amount of sharpening applied is automatically done by QU during printing depending on print size etc. The default value is usually fine for most people. The idea is that it is set once so print sharpness matches what you see on the screen.
I should also mention, print sharpening uses the DFS process too.
That's the basics.
Print to file (P2F) is a type of printing process so smart print sharpening is available. The default is zero I think but for print to file set it to how you like the image to look. Try it with a few tests at different values. You may find it's not required for P2F.

PS. Why are you printing to file? Why not "Convert" the images or even use "Email copies"?
One reason to print to file is to include print features such as text or borders; the other is to prepare an image (embed profile etc.) for sending to a printing service.

Terry
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:12:47 AM by Terry-M » Logged
JustGeorge
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 05:30:00 PM »

Hi,
There are 2 sorts of sharpening in QU:-
1. Image Sharpening (DFS) set in the editor. This is normal  sharpening for the image as you see it on screen.
2. Print "smart" sharpening applied when an image is printed and normally set once in Preferences on the Settings tab. The amount of sharpening applied is automatically done by QU during printing depending on print size etc. The default value is usually fine for most people. The idea is that it is set once so print sharpness matches what you see on the screen.
I should also mention, print sharpening uses the DFS process too.

What I still don't understand is whether or not print sharpening is being applied twice:  once when I process with the "Edit Image" dialogue, then a second sharpening when printing ("Final Print Sharpen" -> "Smart").

If it is being applied twice due to my workflow, do I want to change any of the sharpening settings?

Quote
That's the basics.
Print to file (P2F) is a type of printing process so smart print sharpening is available. The default is zero I think but for print to file set it to how you like the image to look. Try it with a few tests at different values. You may find it's not required for P2F.

I didn't realize how soft my Nikon 18-105 is until recently.  My wife's Nikon P7800 can be soft at some zoom settings.  Generally, sharpening P2F output yields better results than High Pass Sharpening in Affinity Photo.  In real life, most of the time it wouldn't matter.  But I'm attempting to learn Qimage and seeing what works best.  But I'd like to better understand, just a little, what's going on when I P2F.

Quote
PS. Why are you printing to file? Why not "Convert" the images or even use "Email copies"?
One reason to print to file is to include print features such as text or borders; the other is to prepare an image (embed profile etc.) for sending to a printing service.

Well, this is embarrassing  Embarrassed :  I've just spent the last 1.5+ hrs looking for a "Convert" option, and I can't find it.  I've clicked and right-clicked everywhere, menus, images, thumbs, and I can't find a "Convert" or "save as" or "export" or anything resembling that.  This is v2017.120 if that matters.  Something has to be staring me right in the face, but I am not seeing it.  Google was not my friend, either.  Please help.

When I do find the "Convert" option, I'd still like to know if DFS is being applied twice, as outlined above.

The only email option I found was to send via email, which requires configuring Qimage to interface with my email client, not something I want to do for now.  So convert or similar would be the prefered option.

And thanks for the reply,

--JustGeorge

UPDATE:  after posting, installed v2017.121.  Still can't find "Convert".


« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 04:14:34 AM by JustGeorge » Logged

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Fred A
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2017, 09:31:18 AM »

Quote
What I still don't understand is whether or not print sharpening is being applied twice:  once when I process with the "Edit Image" dialogue, then a second sharpening when printing ("Final Print Sharpen" -> "Smart").

If it is being applied twice due to my workflow, do I want to change any of the sharpening settings?

Hi George,
Terry has some chores that he must get done and asked that I have a try explaining.
Hope you don't mind.
Print sharpening is different from regular image sharpening. Let's get that  absorbed.
DFS is a name given to Mike's extraordinary method of sharpening which beats the pants off of USM sharpening.

OK We sharpen our image using the DFS  integers in the EDITOR.  Ex. Radius 3/ Strength 200 with some color/tone to be focused or left alone.
You do not even have to use that, just plain DFS with radius and strength.
When you are satisfied that your image looks sharp, stop!

At this point we can print. We can email, and we can convert.
Stop Here!     Absorb above.  We sharpened and we printed. We emailed, and we converted to a TIF or a JPG or whatever. All is fine.

The other sharpening that is confusing you is SMART SHARPENING
Smart sharpening is a very mild sharpening applied to the PRINT only.
It is designed to replace any decrease in sharpness that comes from the type of paper and the size of the print.  The default is 5.
It works for almost every combination.  Most of us never even think of changing the 5, but I have had some matte papers that needed a 10 to look close to a print on Luster or Premium Glossy.
Stop!
Think this through. Smart Sharpen has a label of DFS because it uses that algorithm, but it is only applied to restore the same image sharpness to the printed image on paper. Smart Sharpen is smarter than you or I. It gauges the print size and applies what it needs. No need to challenge it.

Quote
Well, this is embarrassing  Embarrassed :  I've just spent the last 1.5+ hrs looking for a "Convert" option, and I can't find it.  I've clicked and right-clicked everywhere, menus, images, thumbs, and I can't find a "Convert" or "save as" or "export" or anything resembling that.  This is v2017.120 if that matters.  Something has to be staring me right in the face, but I am not seeing it.  Google was not my friend, either.  Please help.

When I do find the "Convert" option, I'd still like to know if DFS is being applied twice, as outlined above.

The only email option I found was to send via email, which requires configuring Qimage to interface with my email client, not something I want to do for now.  So convert or similar would be the prefered option.

Getting back to what Terry had said: When do we use (as a rule) Convert, and when do we use Print to File?
I use convert to send a JPG or a TIF to someone at fuill resolution. They may want to print it, and do not have QU.
Reason 2, I want to preserve the image as set up, and now I want to see if I can better myself with a second shot at the raw image... and then quickly compare.
I can change color space. I can change size, I can add stuff to the Convert...
Essentially, I am making a copy of my image from the raw image.

Print to File has other purposes.
If I had text on top of my image, If I  has applied mats or borders, if I wanted a file at a certain ppi (pixels per inch) I would use Print 2 file...
Now Stop again.... Since we defined Smart Sharpen as a sharpening tool that replaces the loss that printing to paper incurs, and we are not printing to paper then why would we need to turn on Smart Sharpen... We dont, as a rule.
So that is OFF.
Yes, you can turn it on if for some reason you feel a need for it. After all, why should Qimage Ultimate gray it out? We are smart enough to handle that setting without supervision.
Color Space:   The offer is RGB or ADOBE or Printer profile, or any color space in your folder, but standard that suits most everyone is sRGB. It matches the monitor.
 Email: Just fill in the outgoing server name, and your password. Qimage emails images flawlessly.

Convert: With at least one image in the queue, right click on the LIVE VIEW image. See attached.

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Quote
I didn't realize how soft my Nikon 18-105 is until recently.  My wife's Nikon P7800 can be soft at some zoom settings.  Generally, sharpening P2F output yields better results than High Pass Sharpening in Affinity Photo.  In real life, most of the time it wouldn't matter.  But I'm attempting to learn Qimage and seeing what works best.  But I'd like to better understand, just a little, what's going on when I P2F.

This feature in Q Ultimate may be a bit too much to learn at this stage, but just wanted you to know that you can set your PRESET sharpening and Noise reduction separately for each camera you have.
This is for another time, when you are ready.

OK Enough to work with....
Enjoy your Qimage. Best on the planet.

Fred


 Check this page   http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/learn.htm
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 10:36:28 AM by Fred A » Logged
njtrout
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2017, 01:57:57 PM »

If I am sending to a third party printer such as AdoramaPix I use Print2File right?  Not convert.

Andy
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Fred A
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2017, 04:30:23 PM »

Quote
If I am sending to a third party printer such as AdoramaPix I use Print2File right?  Not convert.

Andy

Hi Andy.
That is not a cut and dried answer.
It usually goes this way.
As you know, ppi is a function of resolution in the image divided by the size of the print.
So Qimage can make perfect prints even when you are printing really large as long as we feed it more than 100 ppi.
But that is Qimage and its special interpolation algorithm.
A third party printer probably uses some other scheme to get up to printing resolution.
The standard of 300 ppi and some at 360 ppi was considered a must for printing outside. Now we know better, but still many 3rd party printing companies still have software systems that do best by you giving them an image that is saved at the print size you want and 300ppi.

That's where you can go into P2F, and order up the print size and the ppi and have Qimage put that together for you.
You can even embed their printer profile if they offer it to you to match their paper and printer.

On the other hand, Convert will give you a perfect TIF match to your original without changing or interpolating before you print. The less times you have to add pixels, the cleaner the image/print.
You can change color profiles/space but you leave the ppi as it falls; by the print size in inches divided into the resolution.

Hope that helps a bit
Fred



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JustGeorge
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 05:41:58 PM »


Hi George,
Terry has some chores that he must get done and asked that I have a try explaining.
Hope you don't mind.

Absolutely no problem.  I can use all the help I can get!  Smiley

Quote
Convert: With at least one image in the queue, right click on the LIVE VIEW image. See attached.

Thank you!  Apparently I didn't right-left click everywhere, or if I did, my brain didn't register what I was seeing.  LIVE VIEW!

Quote
Since we defined Smart Sharpen as a sharpening tool that replaces the loss that printing to paper incurs, and we are not printing to paper then why would we need to turn on Smart Sharpen... We don't, as a rule. ...

OK, that totally clears that up for me.  Smart -> paper  (Generally, of course.)

With a quickie experiment, it looks like I can save a P2F printer profile with "Final Print Sharpening" turned off (or on -- or one for each!).

The rest of your reply, plus your reply to Andy, really helped immensely.  Especially regarding Smart Sharpening.  Some really good stuff.  All copied and saved to my Qimage notes.

Again, thank you for your patience and efforts.

Now I'll go play with P2F and Convert.  So much to learn!

--JustGeorge
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njtrout
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 06:24:10 PM »

Thanks Fred. That helps explain it for me.  Smiley
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Fred A
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2017, 03:34:50 PM »


Quote
(I like the sharpening routine in the image editor because it lets me see the effects of the sharpening in real time, before applying them.)

George/Andy,
I think this old video might help explain the beauty of DFS. Deep Focus Sharpening.
This just the sharpening part.  The Tone Targeted part is another aspect of this gem.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/AiVoXcB1uzk

Fred
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