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Author Topic: Does anyone have a catch all filter to use as a start point?  (Read 14508 times)
Fred A
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2014, 09:16:19 PM »

OK shoot!
Supper time here
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tonygamble
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2014, 09:23:27 PM »

Tell me what shot to send you so you can show me the slider working, please.

What ISO? What sort of a picture?

Bedtime here.

But I'll have it to you by dawn US time.

Tony
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tonygamble
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2014, 05:31:38 AM »

No reply...so I have done two shots at 6400 of the corner of my desk.

One with the slider at None and the other at High.

Unless anyone can spot any difference I must be doing something wrong !!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:33:34 AM by tonygamble » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 08:56:36 AM »

Tony,
I just sent you an image which you can see how the NR handles it in the 233 version compared to the 234 version.
I sent you the raw image. It is 1600 ISO

I can't use JPGS. Must be raw to test.

I feel sure you will be able to see the difference between the way the old NR handled this image and the way the new one does.

Fred
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tonygamble
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 09:05:35 AM »

Fred,

I am talking about the slider you asked me to experiment with two days ago.

I have processed the RAW you sent me with the slider in both extreme left/right positions.

The resultant converted files look totally identical.

Yes, 233 and 234 do different things to noise. I have seen that, but that is not my question. My question is about the slider you asked me to fine tune.

Tony
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Fred A
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 09:22:04 AM »

Tony,
I tried to explain that as best I could.
That Sliding NR filter is adaptive, for one thing.  That means it applies a varying amount of noise reduction to each image based on the slider position which is the threshold for applying, and the amount of noise (real noise, not Chroma that you sent to me).
I know I said this before because I remember spelling threshhold with two (h) s and I had to correct it. :-)
So the bottom line is that either I will have to get a noisy image from a friend of mine that will react so you can see the NR slider all the way to either end producing a different result, or you will have to use one of your noisy ones from a shoot that you did or will do that has poor light and shadows.

Obviously, the two 640 size Jpgs were shot in your office with plenty of light.
Wait for late today with room light off, and vestiges of daylight coming through the window. Then take a few high Iso Shots.
Fred
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tonygamble
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 09:37:02 AM »

Thanks Fred,

OK. I understand.

There is absolutely no rush but if you do come across a RAW that shows the slider working I'd love to see it.

My problem is that I can't experiment and calibrate for my camera until I find one that I have taken. Also I don't know where QU would expect the extra reduction to start kicking in 2400, 3200, 6400 or what.

If there are any lurkers with the E-M5 and/or Ricoh GR who use the slider then please speak out now. I'd love to take a shot at the ISO setting you/they suggest and use that for my calibrating. Working shot by shot through my library is not getting me anywhere.

There is no denying that the latest version is brilliant at getting rid of Chroma. Well done Mike!

Thanks again for your help.

Tony
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Fred A
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 09:52:39 AM »

Quote
Also I don't know where QU would expect the extra reduction to start kicking in 2400, 3200, 6400 or what.
That's what the slider does.
It is the THRESHOLD at which Qimage reads the ISO setting and begins to apply NR filtering.

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tonygamble
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 10:18:54 AM »

Thanks Fred,

The snag is that it does not show any numbers so if I want to start applying NR at 2400 (about right for the Oly and the Ricoh) I need someone with those cameras to tell me where on the slider bar to place the marker.

And presumably someone with a GH2 (my old and noisier camera) needs a different location on the bar.

I have taken a look again at that (6400 ISO) photo of my desk. In the Edit mode of QU it really only starts to remove the noise when I call up the Chroma setting. Maybe for the slider that it the 'wrong sort of noise' (in GB our bureaucrats tell us they can't clean our roads if we get the wrong sort of snow, or the rails when we get the wrong sort of leaves on the lines).

It's hard for me to tell what kind of noise is in the file as software like Noiseware doesn't work with RAWs.

We've probably pushed this slider chat to the limit now but I am sending you the RAW in question. Feel free to ignore it and move on to more interesting things.....

Tony

« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 10:27:44 AM by tonygamble » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 03:15:10 PM »

Quote
We've probably pushed this slider chat to the limit now but I am sending you the RAW in question. Feel free to ignore it and move on to more interesting things.....

Oh No!
We finally have an image that is bad... thank you for your patience.
Your choice. I can make a video for you, or a dissertation here, or both!
Let me make the video, and then you will understand.   If you are irritated by the facts within the video, then it will be between us.

Fred
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tonygamble
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« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 03:21:38 PM »

Thanks Fred,

Your videos usually sort me out.

Remember I am particularly interested in setting that slider.

Then I realise you will want to go into edit. I'll be fascinated as to how you match noise removal against definition retention. You know I am an available light fanatic - so it'll show me the light (poor pun).

Tony
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Jeff
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« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2014, 03:31:00 PM »

Quote
We've probably pushed this slider chat to the limit now but I am sending you the RAW in question. Feel free to ignore it and move on to more interesting things.....

Oh No!
We finally have an image that is bad... thank you for your patience.
Your choice. I can make a video for you, or a dissertation here, or both!
Let me make the video, and then you will understand.   If you are irritated by the facts within the video, then it will be between us.

Fred


I look forward to a video, could be very helpful

Jeff
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Terry-M
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« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 05:35:08 PM »

Tony,
Code:
Remember I am particularly interested in setting that slider.
Have you read the Help related to the raw NR Slider? In raw options click F1 to read it. There it explains that there is no increase in NT above 2000 iso.

I helpful tutorial on noise is here, (2 pages).
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm
It explains the difference between luminance and chroma noise and why high iso's make noise worse - it's all to do with signal to noise ratios just like on a Hi Fi amplifier. Turn the volume up on a poor amp and the noise can be heard, filter it out and the sound quality reduces.

QU Ultra - Chroma NR does a good job for me on iso's 6400 and above - not that I use those very high values very often.
Terry
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Fred A
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« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2014, 06:30:20 PM »

Quote
The snag is that it does not show any numbers so if I want to start applying NR at 2400 (about right for the Oly and the Ricoh) I need someone with those cameras to tell me where on the slider bar to place the marker.

And presumably someone with a GH2 (my old and noisier camera) needs a different location on the bar.

The Noise Reduction slider is adaptive. You don't have to adjust for each image. Yes, you can make one setting for one model and another for a different camera, but when you save that, Qimage will apply it to the proper image from the saved camera. Therefore, you don't have to touch it any more.

As for the noise issue, I think you caught on from the video.  Underexposure is your enemy, and when your enemy gets so badly underexposed, he makes noise... both kinds or chroma.... The sensor just can't handle the amplification...
Luckily, Qimage has both types of Noise reduction. We were able to make that image reasonable.

My best to the Queen.
Fred
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tonygamble
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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 06:18:38 AM »

Re-shooting the shot of my desk that I did yesterday, but at the same ISO and increasing the meter reading by two stops, I get a much more useable RAW.

It is not the theme of this thread, which is development speed, but it tempts me to mention that there could be an argument for holding the ISO and overexposing rather than simply lifting the ISO. I guess others have experimented and have views on this. I wonder what they are.
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