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Author Topic: Page margins headache / feature request  (Read 13405 times)
Geraldo Garcia
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« on: September 04, 2014, 08:46:32 PM »

Hello,

I have been forcing myself to learn and use Qimage ultimate more often as I really like the results and some features of it, but this is something that keeps taking me back to other applications.
Let me explain:

My printing studio receives work from a great range of artists, not only photographers but painters, illustrators, digital artists... you name it. A lot of them create their work with a fixed size in mind (usually ISO A sizes) and they bring their work ready to be printed on a sheet of the desired size (A4, A3, A2... whatever). I always insist on the minimum margins and they take it into account when creating their work.

But my problem is: If an artist bring a work already sized to an A4 sheet with white margins big enough to avoid problems with the minimum page margins requested by the printer, how do I place it on the queue without shrinking the image?

When I face this problem I have two options:

A) I take the image to Photoshop and manually crop the minimum margins from the white border, save it, return to Qimage, adjust the new cropped image to fit the printable area and print.

B) I take the image to Photoshop, open the Canon print Plug-in, set the page size (A4), set the desired image size (also A4 21x19,7cm) and print. It would automatically crop the image beyond the minimum page margin witch is totally OK as it is only white space anyway. Everything is exactly on the desired size and position.

I also tried setting negative numbers on the page margins to make it zero and it worked on the screen, but when I print the driver adds another 5mm (the minimum margin) on the top and on the left pushing the image down and to the right.  

I would love to be able to do something like option "B" on Qimage, fit the desired size on the page ignoring the minimum page margins and when printing crop off the page margins before sending it so the driver does not push the image down and to the right.

If there is already a way to do it, please tell me!

Thanks in advance.
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Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 08:51:52 PM »

Quote
But my problem is: If an artist bring a work already sized to an A4 sheet with white margins big enough to avoid problems with the minimum page margins requested by the printer, how do I place it on the queue without shrinking the image?
Not sure how your customers create their images, but you can bring the images in by setting the paper size to A4, and then use  FIT TO PAGE, or try ORIGINAL SIZR

What happens in Qimage that disturbs you?

Fred
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 09:17:11 PM »

Hello Fred,

Thanks for your quick answer.
My clients way to create their images is irrelevant, the point is that a lot of times I get images already sized to fit specific sheet sizes with more than enough white margin to be able to print properly but I can't do that easily on Qimage.

With the page size already set to A4, if I try to load an A4 sized file to the queue I face two options as you said:
- Fit to page: will shrink the image to fit inside the printable area, no good.
- Original size (or custom size setting the original size manually): It will say that the image is bigger than the printable area and offer to shrink to fit or span on multiple pages. No good also.

As I said before I would like to have an option to automatically crop off anything beyond the printable area.
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Fred A
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 09:34:23 PM »

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With the page size already set to A4, if I try to load an A4 sized file to the queue I face two options as you said:
- Fit to page: will shrink the image to fit inside the printable area, no good.

Well, we are getting somewhere.
If you use A4 paper, and your customer sent you an image that they made and is purported to be able to fit on A4, and Qimage shrinks the image to fit, that tells you that the image was sized for something other than for the printable area of A4 which is 11.458 x 8.033, or.... explain shrink.
Do you mean you get white margins, or the print is smaller than 11.458 x 8.033.

Does any of the two attached images look like what you see?
The third attachment is teh Original size box. Any checkmarks in yours?

Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 09:46:49 PM »

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Fit to page: will shrink the image to fit inside the printable area, no good.
Not necessarily, you need to use a print crop in the Page Editor, access with icon below preview or double click in the preview area outside the page.
Use Fit to page, go the the page editor and in the crop tab and zoom to remove the excess at the edges. Use precision crop (+ icon below crop preview) for accurate cropping.
See attached screen shots where I've used an image with wide borders which I've then print cropped to remove them and enlarged the actual image to fit the A4 page.
Terry
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 09:52:26 PM by Terry-M » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2014, 12:49:19 AM »

Hello Terry,

Thanks for joining and for having a look on this issue. I think you got the general idea about the problem and what you suggest seems to be the closest thing to a solution inside Qimage at this moment. Unfortunately it is not precise enough and not as simple as it is on other softwares.

To give you a deeper understanding of the scenario let me show you an example. I will use ISO A4 size on this example but it would be the same with any other sheet size.

A client, a conceptual artist, sends a file to print (attached below). His work is A4 size and has plenty of white margins, way more than what the printer requires.
As the sheet size is A4, the image size is A4 and the borders are white, on other softwares I would simply set the image size as A4 on the A4 sheet and print. The image beyond the minimum required borders would not print but that is OK because it is white space anyway.

On Qimage it is very hard if not impossible to do it precisely, even cropping manually with precision crop as you told is no good because we do not have a visual reference due to the wide white margins of the file.

I think it should be easy and precise as everything else on Qimage. A matter of placing an A4 image on an A4 sheet and simply ignoring what goes beyond the printable margin. As "Fit to page" option is really a "Fit to printable area", it could have something like a true "Fit to page", fitting to the entire page size and simply warning that the image beyond the printable area will not be printed. That would help a lot.

As I told you before, we can simulate this applying negative numbers to make the page margins go to zero, it works on the screen but not when we print.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 01:10:49 AM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2014, 01:28:36 AM »

As you can see on the previously posted image the wide white borders makes hard to know where to crop on Qimage and the client (always) demand precise placement and size.

Just to help on thin example I created another version of the image with a red outline just on the edge of the printable area of my printer (attached at the bottom).

Looking at this file inside Qimage on an A4 sheet we have this:


But we should have this with a true "Fit to page" (not "Fit to printable area") selected. (Example made with the unprintable negative margins setting) :


I am certain that those who print for others will find a feature like that quite useful.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 01:45:37 AM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 01:41:34 AM »

By the way, that is not really a file from a client, just something I made to resemble a recent case, but we get a lot of formated work like this and is quite frustrating that Qimage can't handle it easily.

Thanks again.
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BrianPrice
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 06:56:46 AM »

Geraldo

I'm not sure about your printer, but could you set it to print 'Borderless' and turn Borderless Expansion off with
Edit>Preferences>Print and Page Formatting>Borderless Expansion>Disable

Brian
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Terry-M
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 07:19:27 AM »

Hi,
Using negative margins is the wrong approach and not recommended. Negative margins do not increase the printable area.
Quote
But we should have this with a true "Fit to page" (not "Fit to printable area") selected.
This is nothing to do with QU, all this data is from the driver which QU reads. Fit to page and fit to printable area are the same thing!
As Brian has said you need borderless set in your driver to increase the printable area.

I have downloaded your image and loaded into QU.
I have downloaded your image and put in into QU. See 1st screen shot with Fit to page set with crop on. See 1st screen shot.
I noted immediately that the red line rectangle is a different aspect ratio from A4 so it will never be possible to remove the excess white on the bottom short side.
Using borderless would not change the aspect ratio of the red line rectangle of course
In the page editor I zoomed in to eliminate as much white as possible but still see the red line, see 2nd and 3rd screen shots below.
The 4th screen shot shows it with borderless set in the driver.
Terry
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 07:21:02 AM by Terry-M » Logged
Terry-M
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 07:31:15 AM »

Another approach would be to crop the image in QU image editor.
See screen shots below of editor and page preview with crop scissors off.
Terry
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 11:46:07 AM »

Let me see if I've interpreted the scenario...

Someone created a layout for A4 paper so they have an image that is formatted to A4 size.  They may have started with an image formatted to exactly A4 dimensions and then placed some things/images on that A4 size image.  Now you want to print on A4 paper in QU but QU realizes that your printer can't print to the whole A4 sheet (without going borderless) because your printer has non-printable margins on that A4.  The conundrum is, how do you print their A4 sheet exactly like they laid it out on that A4 image, when the printer can't cover the whole A4 sheet?  There's a feature specifically for that, but first...

I know I don't have to tell you, but the above is just generally bad practice.  When people do the above, they have no idea what printer you are using or the paper/settings you might use, so it encourages people to make mistakes like moving images too far to the edge (outside the printable area).  Obviously, the layout should be done in the program you use to print (the one that knows the printer capabilities), but given that you can't always do that, here's how you handle that situation.

Someone hands you an A4 formatted image and says "print this on A4", so you:

(1) Add that A4 image to the queue at A4 size by using the "Custom" sizing option, Specific Size, and enter the exact A4 dimensions.  Or, if you already have an A4 size that you created in your size list, just use that.

(2) If QU tells you that the size is too large for one page (because your printer has margins on A4), just tell it "YES"... it's OK to print a poster.

(3) The image will show up as (most likely) a 2x2 poster.  Now go into the full page editor.

(4) On the cropping tab, select that image on the page and then click the little test strip button (table vice icon) and you're done.

Regards,
Mike
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 02:08:21 PM »

Hello Terry, thanks for the attention.

Using negative margins is the wrong approach and not recommended. Negative margins do not increase the printable area.

Sure, as I said it is clear it only works on the screen and that is perfectly understandable. I used it only to show what I would like to have.

Quote
As Brian has said you need borderless set in your driver to increase the printable area.

No... unfortunately that is not an option because "borderless" would increase the image size a bit beyond what is necessary, rendering a slightly lager magnification of the image. Very small for sure, but unacceptable. Besides, large format Canon IPF printers do not allow borderless on cut sheets, so that is not an option.

Just to clarify, I placed that red line inside the printable area so it should be visible on the edge of the printable area, still inside of it but touching the unprintable margin. Have a look on the second screenshot I posted, the one made with the negative margins. That is what it should look like when perfectly cropped.
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 02:21:27 PM »

My post right above yours shows you how to crop it perfectly with one click.

Mike
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2014, 03:00:32 PM »

Hello Mike, thank you for joining in and for heraing your clients needs. That is what makes Qimage such a great tool.

Let me see if I've interpreted the scenario...

Someone created a layout for A4 paper so they have an image that is formatted to A4 size.  They may have started with an image formatted to exactly A4 dimensions and then placed some things/images on that A4 size image.  Now you want to print on A4 paper in QU but QU realizes that your printer can't print to the whole A4 sheet (without going borderless) because your printer has non-printable margins on that A4.  The conundrum is, how do you print their A4 sheet exactly like they laid it out on that A4 image, when the printer can't cover the whole A4 sheet?  There's a feature specifically for that, but first...

I know I don't have to tell you, but the above is just generally bad practice. (...)

Sure, but we should keep in mind that I am not the artist and my clients create their pieces to fit standard paper sizes. Obviously we would never be able to print anything that goes beyond the minimum required margin and I warn them about that, but asking them to provide their files already cropped to fit our printable area is not a viable option, specially because we work with different printers with slightly different requirements. As long as they provide a file on the desired page size with enough margins to be "cropped" by the printer I can't ask for more and is up to me to adequate it to the needs of our equipment, which is fine and I am just wanting a way to do this inside Qimage as fast, as easy and precise as I do on other software. I was hoping that my lack of knowledge of the software was the problem, but it seems that is simply not the way you think it should work.

Your last suggestion does not work either, at least if I am doing it properly. After going to the full page editor ad clicking on the test strip button I get this:


The placement is not correct (for what I need) as you can see by the red line on the bottom, sure I could correct the placement manually with precise crop on this image because of the red lines, but the real image does not have that visual reference. Have a look on the second screenshot I posted before (the one with the negative margins) to see the desired placement.

Please know that I am aware that this is not a Qimage "problem", I am just stating that other softwares have a much easier approach solving it and helping me with this real life problem and I am asking/suggesting that a solution/alternative to this (non-Qimage but common) issue inside Qimage would be a great improvement. At least for me and I am sure to some others and it would make me use Qimage a lot more. As it is today I have to go to Photoshop to adjust the images quickly and precisely and I really believe that it is (should be) possible to do it inside Qimage.

The whole idea is: An option to fit the image to the whole page (not to the printable area) and let the area beyond the printable area go blank.

Thanks again for your time and attention and for all the effort you put on this great software.
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