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Author Topic: Page margins headache / feature request  (Read 13028 times)
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2014, 09:44:15 PM »

It's working and it is creating the exact size crop, but...  there's an extra step with your setup because I notice that your printable area is not centered (the test strip crops the center of the page).  If you had a "centered" option in the driver, it would work without this step but for you:

Do things exactly like you did, using the test strip button.  When done, click the high precision cropping tool and click in the middle of the already designed crop area and drag that up until it exactly covers your red outline.  Alternatively, you could go to Edit, Preferences, Print and Page Formatting, Page Margins, and click the "Center on Physical Page" button.  Then do the test strip without any extra steps.  That method would work as long as you don't have something close to the top margin of the printable area and the alignment will be exact.  The only down side is that this second method decreases your printable area (at the top) by about 1.5cm: a consequence of creating the centered printable area.

In the next version, I'll update the test strip function so that it can handle off-centered printable areas and take them into account.  For now, the above two methods should help.

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 09:26:26 AM »

What I like about the automagical functions of Qimage Ultimate is the feedback you still get on dimensions etc when in doubt about their function or of my choices made. It is a transparent box most of the time. Sometimes I suspect that too many steps to solve a task and less feedback given on the result may be less handy than adjusting the dimensions manually. The more when the mistake shows in the print itself and not before. I agree that one should start from the image without surrounding white, in whatever form, but shop's practice is different. One of the things I miss in the crop function of image editing is a metric feedback of the crop, only pixels are shown. I know digital images have no dimension and what is described as Original Size in Qimage's menu is only what Photoshop etc adds as a label to that image but those virtual dimensions come back every day in my work. It makes communication with my customers way easier. If the cropping tool in image editing would show the metric or imperial sizes of the Original Size as well it would be a major improvement for me. It would be the way I would solve what Geraldo mentions as a (recognisable) problem but also many other things on sizes, white areas, print margins and paper waste economy can be adjusted that way. I am sure that Fred, Terry etc wil have or find a way already present in Qimage Ultimate but I also know that the fastest route for me often is a crop in Photoshop to get this done. One that means an extra image saved as it can not be a temporary filter on the image like Qimage would allow. I recognize a software design approach in QU where any virtual size is banned from the image editing tools and only available in the print menu tools. Maybe one little inconsistency can be allowed.

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http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:34:44 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Terry-M
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 10:40:01 AM »

Hi Ernst.
Code:
One of the things I miss in the crop function of image editing is a metric feedback of the crop, only pixels are shown.
Well it is there but in a different form. In the crop section of the image editor, enter the print dimensions directly in the boxes, tick crop lock and draw your crop.
Alternatively, use the crop wizard which picks up a pre-set size. NB. only a limited number of sizes show in the wizard.
Doing either of those will give you the exact aspect ratio for the size.
You can do something very similar in the Page Editor size tab (which I would prefer); enter the print dimensions directly (crop scissors on), click Apply to Selected and then adjust the crop in the crop tab.
That MUST be easier than messing about in PS and creating yet another image  Wink
Terry
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 02:44:55 PM »

Hi Ernst.
Code:
One of the things I miss in the crop function of image editing is a metric feedback of the crop, only pixels are shown.
Well it is there but in a different form. In the crop section of the image editor, enter the print dimensions directly in the boxes, tick crop lock and draw your crop.
Alternatively, use the crop wizard which picks up a pre-set size. NB. only a limited number of sizes show in the wizard.
Doing either of those will give you the exact aspect ratio for the size.
You can do something very similar in the Page Editor size tab (which I would prefer); enter the print dimensions directly (crop scissors on), click Apply to Selected and then adjust the crop in the crop tab.
That MUST be easier than messing about in PS and creating yet another image  Wink
Terry


Terry, the first does not more than setting a custom aspect ratio of the crop. That does not add anything to the pixel numbers we have already available there for that task.  So it does not matter if I specify that in pixel or metric numbers and QU looks only at the aspect ratio anyway there, not the type of units.  I use that for other tasks and it is good.

It is not about the aspect ratio. It is about the metric sizes at Original Size and getting the metric information back of the XY spot of the crop and its sizes. Like the crop tool shows in info of Photoshop. The second suggestion you make is not different to what Mike offered and I find it elaborate with little feedback on what the output actually will be.

For Geraldo it would be logical with more A4s imported to select an A4 sheet size, center the print margins in QU preferences and use the scissors when nesting at Original Size. But Qimage does not scale the image to the selected A4 size + cutting off excessive white then. Other software would. In Qimage you have to go one step further to the test strip crop to get that effect, more or less. That works when the file has that Original Size tab and the image is in the center.

I see some logic when Qimage is set to Fit to Page that is uses the print page area without print margins but at Original Size with scissors on it should crop the print margins off. In fact even when the print margins are not symmetric. But with assymetric page margins the route I gave with test strip as the last step does not deliver. The naming of the functions like test strip crop does not reveal what it can do for the user either. In a sense this thread reminds me of a MAD cartoon where the character starts with customising a screwdriver to another tool that needs to become yet another tool and at the end of that tale becomes a screwdriver again, shorter of course.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 05:23:53 PM »

But Qimage does not scale the image to the selected A4 size + cutting off excessive white then. Other software would.

Other software would also let you print a 4.25 x 6.25 inch photo on borderless 4x6 paper, and never warn you that it is going to crop off all 4 sides.  You'll see that part of your photo on all 4 sides is missing only when it comes out of the printer.  We need to be a little more precise than the "other software".  Sometimes you'll want to crop that off, and many times you won't.  You're focusing on one particular example but you are leaving out one undeniable fact: If you have an A4 image and you try to print it on A4 paper (non-borderless), you cannot print the image at Original Size.  You can print part of the image original size, but that decision (whether or not it is acceptable to cut off significant portions on all 4 sides) should be left to the user: and that's what the test strip function is for.  As I said, that function is going to be expanded to allow you to crop off the non-printable margins in the next version so it shouldn't be an issue.

Mike
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 06:11:46 PM »

I see some logic when Qimage is set to Fit to Page that is uses the print page area without print margins but at Original Size with scissors on it should crop the print margins off. In fact even when the print margins are not symmetric. But with assymetric page margins the route I gave with test strip as the last step does not deliver. The naming of the functions like test strip crop does not reveal what it can do for the user either. In a sense this thread reminds me of a MAD cartoon where the character starts with customising a screwdriver to another tool that needs to become yet another tool and at the end of that tale becomes a screwdriver again, shorter of course.

Hello Ernst,

Thanks for joining in! I was hoping you would because I am sure you face this problem yourself as it is a reality for all the commercial printing studios that work beyond the photography world. We do get page formatted work and the artists usually state that the white area is not only a "margin" but part of the art piece, sometimes even more important than the printed area. They simply do their work and ask us "Can you print this exactly as it is?". It is up to us to find a solution... and we do! We just would like to do it (easier and more precisely) inside Qimage. As it is today we have to make a run to Photoshop for the sake or our time and sanity.

As I said before, I think that the current "fit to page" should be renamed to "fit to printable area" because that is exactly what it is, and a new option "Fit to the whole page" should be added behaving exactly as we described: fit the image to the whole page size and crop away what is beyond the total margins (fixed+additional), than automatically fit the remaining image to the printable area. A warning should pop stating what is happening. That would be an elegant and precise solution. Of course saying is way easier than doing and we don't know if it is possible for Mike to do it, but I would love if he could and I really think a lot of other people would like it too. What bugs me at this moment Is that he seems to think that is "wrong" or "unnecessary"... Trust us, Mike: It is NEEDED!  Grin

Best regards.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 06:25:28 PM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2014, 06:21:31 PM »

It's working and it is creating the exact size crop, but...  

Hello Mike,
Thanks for keep looking into this. I hope the change you are planning improves things, because at this moment it does not work for me. See, that red line I placed was to show you the problem, the real file does not have that so we don't have a visual reference to adjust the crop manually. That is a big part of my (surely other's also) problem: I cannot rely on visual reference and manual dragging, I need something more precise and fast than that.
If your change improves that, it would be great, but I really think the best approach (from the users point of view) would be what I and Ernst suggested. Sure we don't know how hard/possible would be to implement it.
Thanks again.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 06:48:24 PM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2014, 12:15:43 PM »

As I said before, I think that the current "fit to page" should be renamed to "fit to printable area" because that is exactly what it is, and a new option "Fit to the whole page" should be added behaving exactly as we described

No, the "page" (size listed above the preview) is defined as the area of the paper to which you have access.  What you are looking for it "fit to paper" which I can see being useful as well, but only in the specific circumstance that the print size you specified (or the Original Size if you're using that) is equal to the current paper size.  Obviously if you specify 13x19 as the size and you are using A4 paper, you probably aren't trying to print at the paper size in which case "fit to page" (scaling) is probably the most common solution.

I think more common than the scenario you mention is the case where someone scans A4 media and they end up with an A4 scan that they now want to replicate on A4 paper.  In that case (in addition to your example), a "fit to paper" option would be useful.  That's what the test strip function was designed to do but isn't quite filling the bill due to it not taking into account non-centered printable areas.  So I'll see what I can do about that.

To be honest, if your printer can do borderless on the paper size you are using, that is the best solution because then you know you can print the image and you don't have to worry about whether or not your printer is going to cut off portions of the image.  You can turn off size (borderless) expansion in QU preferences if your printer driver doesn't offer a "no expansion" option, so that's not an issue.

Mike
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 12:26:25 PM by admin » Logged
Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2014, 05:33:41 PM »

No, the "page" (size listed above the preview) is defined as the area of the paper to which you have access.  What you are looking for it "fit to paper" which I can see being useful as well, but only in the specific circumstance that the print size you specified (or the Original Size if you're using that) is equal to the current paper size.

Ok. I will not turn it into a semantic debate, "fit to page" and "fit to paper" would be just as good as "fit to printable area" and "fit to whole page". But that circumstance is not as rare as you may think, your example below shows one typical scenario but it happens quite often.

Quote
I think more common than the scenario you mention is the case where someone scans A4 media and they end up with an A4 scan that they now want to replicate on A4 paper.  In that case (in addition to your example), a "fit to paper" option would be useful.  That's what the test strip function was designed to do but isn't quite filling the bill due to it not taking into account non-centered printable areas.  So I'll see what I can do about that.

Thanks! It would be a usable feature.

Quote
To be honest, if your printer can do borderless on the paper size you are using, that is the best solution because then you know you can print the image and you don't have to worry about whether or not your printer is going to cut off portions of the image.  You can turn off size (borderless) expansion in QU preferences if your printer driver doesn't offer a "no expansion" option, so that's not an issue.

Unfortunately most large format printers can't do true borderless. They can do what they call "borderless" printing on roll paper, but it is not a true borderless because you still have to trim the top and the bottom. On cut sheets most large format printers can't do it at all because the paper traction demands a huge trailing edge, so the manufacturers disable that option on the drivers. HP Z3xxx drivers have a neat feature in their margins setup called "Clip contents by margin" that reports zero required margin to the softwares and let the contents clip during printing at the minimum required margin, the downside is that you have no visual reference on the programs so you must know very well the true size limitations and pay attention to what is happening.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 06:03:41 PM by Geraldo Garcia » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2014, 06:08:55 PM »

I've added a "Fit to paper" selection in the sizes in 2015.101.  Should be out later today.  It'll also automatically fit to paper if the size you choose (either manually or via Original Size) is the same as the current paper size.

Mike
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2014, 07:49:04 PM »

OK, 101 is out with the "Fit to paper" option.  We've tested it on a number of cases including various sheet sizes created from another app, scanned images, etc.  If you scan an 8.5 x 11 page, for example, and then print the scan with "Fit to paper" sizing, you can place both the original and the printed scan on top of each other and look through the 2 pieces of paper in front of a strong light and they align perfectly, to the point that they look like one page.

Give it a try.

Regards,
Mike
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2014, 10:42:13 PM »

Mike,

I have not tested it extensively (yet) but from three quick tests with different sizes I can tell you this:

IT WORKS!!! Cheesy

Thanks a lot. Qimage is a great piece of software, no one would question that, but this level of support and dialog is unique.

Best regards.   
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2014, 12:43:13 PM »

Mike,

Thank you. It looks like you made the fastest function possible for Geraldo's task. I did not go through all the possibilities yet but it works fine on the ones I tested.

If possible could you look into some metric/imperial feedback on the crop function in image editing of an Original Size file?  There are still jobs where I would go to Photoshop for certain crops while it could be better done in QU.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Geraldo Garcia
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2014, 01:25:01 PM »

If possible could you look into some metric/imperial feedback on the crop function in image editing of an Original Size file?  There are still jobs where I would go to Photoshop for certain crops while it could be better done in QU.

That is true, it would help a lot on some jobs and, as a side effect, would give a pleasing sensation to control freaks like me! Cheesy
About the "fit to paper", the first job today was a typical scenario with 10 pieces of artwork made on A3 paper. It already saved 10 minutes of my day during my first hour of work.

Thanks!
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