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Author Topic: Printable Area and Centering  (Read 12688 times)
Stan Prevost
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« on: November 06, 2012, 05:13:25 PM »

I don't get to print as much as I would like and can't always remember what I learn from one printing exercise to the next, including QU features!  Actually, I have been having the problem discussed here for some time and I think there are some underlying principles that I don't understand that is preventing me from learning.

The issue is print sizing and centering.  I have read everything I can find on QU help and forum, it seems understandable and pretty simple, but I haven't found the magic answer yet that triggers my understanding.


Epson 7900, Win7 X64, QU 2013.103.  The current task is to print a 12x18 print centered on 13x19 paper.  What could be simpler? Image dimensions are 5616x3744 px, landscape oriented.  I set everything up as I thought it should be but the print came out with one inch borders in one direction and somewhat less in the other direction.  So I decided to start from the beginning and find the root of my misunderstanding.

All dimensions in inches.

First I had QU reset all printer settings, and I started QU.  Set the printer driver to epson 7900, SuperA3/329x483mm Sheet paper, the type of paper I am using, portrait orientation, Output Paper Same As Paper Size, no Reduce/Enlarge, no Multi-Page, everything else unchecked.

The preview pane, at the top above the image area, says the printable area is 12.719x18.350, which is adequate for my need.   My Epson manual says the printable area margin is 3mm (0.118") right and left for roll paper, I assume that is the same for cut sheets.  So I would expect the printable area to be 12.764 by something, almost 2mm off in width but close. In height I lost 0.65", more than I would have expected, but Epson doesn't say.  Epson says for roll paper I can set all the margins to 3mm, I don't know how that applies to sheets.  But the indicated printable height suggests that I can actually get my 12x18 print on this paper.  I have done it before, not doing anything special, and I just measured one as 12x18 as close as I can tell on a metal ruler.

Hovering the mouse over the crosshatched pattern in the preview pane, it says 12.77x17.90 for the image size.  No image is selected, so I don't know what that means.  The crosshatch pattern appears to occupy the full printable area but the indicated height is 0.45 inches less that the printable height shown at the top of the pane.  I can't get the 18" print on 17.90 inches of printable area. 

I think I will stop right here before selecting an image, and see if someone can help me reconcile the numbers I am seeing.

Stan

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Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »

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irst I had QU reset all printer settings, and I started QU.  Set the printer driver to epson 7900, SuperA3/329x483mm Sheet paper, the type of paper I am using, portrait orientation, Output Paper Same As Paper Size, no Reduce/Enlarge, no Multi-Page, everything else unchecked.

Hi Stan,
Let's go slowly for my sake.

I have selected a 7900 epson as my printer. I have also selected Super A3/B from Epson's paper size choices  which is the US 13 x 19 paper selection.
That produces a printable area  (Above the preview panel upper right) of 18.783 x 12.719

Plenty of room for a 12 x 18 print.



I make my print size 18 x 12 and I get about 1/2 inch margin all the way around. Crop scissor on
One side is .51 and the other is .48 inches.

Quote
Hovering the mouse over the crosshatched pattern in the preview pane, it says 12.77x17.90 for the image size.  No image is selected, so I don't know what that means.  The crosshatch pattern appears to occupy the full printable area but the indicated height is 0.45 inches less that the printable height shown at the top of the pane.  I can't get the 18" print on 17.90 inches of printable area.

That is the selected print size that shows when you hover the cross hatch. It says so on the pop up.
That says to me you have the wrong print size selected.
Open Print properties and select CUSTOM size. Type in 18 in one box and 12 in the other and OK out.
Let me stop here and see if we match!

Fred
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 06:22:58 PM by Fred A » Logged
Stan Prevost
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 10:08:35 PM »

Quote
Hi Stan,
Let's go slowly for my sake.

 Cheesy

Quote
I have selected a 7900 epson as my printer. I have also selected Super A3/B from Epson's paper size choices  which is the US 13 x 19 paper selection.
That produces a printable area  (Above the preview panel upper right) of 18.783 x 12.719

OK, first differences.  I don't have US 13x19 B on Epson's paper size choices.  I have a user-defined 13x19, but US 13x19 doesn't show up anywhere, including in US ANSI and US ARCH.  But we both have Super A3/B.  My printable area is also different; same in short dimension, mine is smaller in long dimension (18.35).


Quote
Plenty of room for a 12 x 18 print.

Agreed, even with my smaller printable area.

Quote
That is the selected print size that shows when you hover the cross hatch. It says so on the pop up.

I had not yet selected a print nor a print size, which is why I didn't know what it meant, I thought it might mean the maximum print size I could get within the printable area.  But I thought that would be equal to the printable area.

Quote
Open Print properties and select CUSTOM size. Type in 18 in one box and 12 in the other and OK out.
Let me stop here and see if we match!

I now have gone beyond what I did for the previous post and have selected a print, trying to correspond with what you have done.  I selectd the size as you said.  Auto crop is off.  Now the mouse hover boxon the image says 12.00x18.00, as does the queue info.  Hovering over the printable area (white part) also shows 12x18.  The print is scrunched into the top left corner of the printable area in the preview pane.

You said you have half-inch borders all around, as expected, so I took another step forward and clicked "Center" on the Full Page Editor Size/Loc tab.  It says "it is physically impossible to center the selected image on the page with the current print driver settings ......."  Continuing with OK, the image preview is centered as well as I can tell visually, the Print Location info is 0.48L, 0.48R, 0.47T, 0.55B.

I haven't learned the crop scissor so can't verify your readings.

So we have some differences.

Thanks for helping, Fred.

Stan
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Fred A
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 10:38:13 PM »

Quote
OK, first differences.  I don't have US 13x19 B on Epson's paper size choices.  I have a user-defined 13x19, but US 13x19 doesn't show up anywhere, including in US ANSI and US ARCH.  But we both have Super A3/B.  My printable area is also different; same in short dimension, mine is smaller in long dimension (18.35).


Ok Stan,
Read carefully. I used the same paper size that you used in your first
Quote
SuperA3/329x483mm Sheet paper, the type of paper I am using, portrait orientation, Output Paper Same As Paper Size, no Reduce/Enlarge, no Multi-Page, everything else unchecked.

So all I said was that Super A3 329 x 483mm is 13 x 19.  So we are on the same page.

Then you say, the 18 x 12 should fit even "with my smaller printable area.

STOP! Right there!

We have the same printer and the same paper selected (Super A3 329 x 483 mm) we must get the same printable area before we proceed any further.

Please see the snap attached. It shows a 12 x 18 print, and on the right, the position.
It shows the print size and the left over white.... even on both sides... Notice Print Placement set to Optimal Spaced.

So, Stan, please back up a step, take a breath and set the printer as I describe. Paper size Super A3; Print size 12 x 18... Printable area is 18.783 x 12.719.

You have to get those numbers or you have something else turned on...
Did you mess with Margins in Qimage?
Do you have Borderless on?
Did you change the output size, although you specifically said no!
See second screen snap. Make sure it looks like that.


That's what would do it!

We will figure it out. Don't give up!

Fred

PS I forgot. Auto crop ON . You open Print properties where all the preset sizes are, and click on the scissors.. This way you are sure to get 12 x 18 and not smaller.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 10:41:51 PM by Fred A » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 10:56:56 PM »

Here's some more information, Stan.
If I set to SHEET paper (not sure what you chose) I get a different printable area... 18.350 x 12.719
Then I get spacing with top and bottom margins .48 and .48 inches Landscape), and sides are left, .47 inches, and right is .56 inches. 
Most all Epsons (using sheet paper) will reserve a half inch for housekeeping.
Still you are talking about 9/100th of an inch .09 difference.
Can you match those numbers?

Fred
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Stan Prevost
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 02:16:50 AM »

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Read carefully. I used the same paper size that you used in your first
Quote

SuperA3/329x483mm Sheet paper, the type of paper I am using, portrait orientation, Output Paper Same As Paper Size, no Reduce/Enlarge, no Multi-Page, everything else unchecked.

So all I said was that Super A3 329 x 483mm is 13 x 19.  So we are on the same page.

I did read carefully, Fred, and I discerned an ambiguity.  You said the Super A3 is the US 13x19 paper selection.  Well, the Epson paper selecetions include two categories of  sizes called US sizes, and the 13x19 is not in either of them.  So that opened the possiblity that for some reason we have different paper selections and I just wanted to get that clarified in case I need to reinstall my program or driver or something.  No problem, we are both using the same thing.

Quote
Then you say, the 18 x 12 should fit even "with my smaller printable area.

STOP! Right there!

We have the same printer and the same paper selected (Super A3 329 x 483 mm) we must get the same printable area before we proceed any further.

Totally agree, that is why I stopped before even selecting a print, as the printable area did not seem correct, and I had an unexpected result when doing the mouse hover over the printable area in the preview pane with no print selected.  From your snapshots I can see that we have some differences in settings.  I specified exactly what my settings were, as I started by resetting all printer settings and making the settings I described and only those.  Three differences we know now are Auto Crop,  Optimize Enlargement, Landscape vs portrait, and optimal vs optimal/spaced. 

I originally selected sheet paper and had the same printable area that you now report when you select sheet paper, so your original settings must have been roll paper.  This is the printable area that I referred to as my smaller printable area, which seems to be enough for a 12x18.

So the reason for one difference is resolved.

But wait.  We are getting ahead.  I'm sure that if we match our settings we will match our numbers.  What my problem is is trying to understand the settings and numbers, why a given setting results in a given number. 

Let's go back to what I think the printer driver reports as minimum margins, given in Edit/Preferences/Print and Page Formatting/Page Margins shown in the first snip.  The numbers are .1167 inches for Top and Left, 0.1194 for Right, and 0.5528 for Bottom.  So the printable area should be 12.764 x 18.330.  QU reports 12.719 vs 18.350 on the preview pane.  Differences are small, .04 and .02 inches, but why are they different?  At 360 ppi, the differences are in the 7-12 pixel range. 

The 12x18" print size, using Optimal spacing, has location (margins) of .12L, .84R, .12T, .91B.  These sum to .96 in the short direction, and 1.03" in the long direction.  These are considerably different from the margins just discussed.  For Optimal/Spaced, the margins are .48 L and R, .29T, .73 bottom.  These sum to .96 in the short dimension and 1.03 in the long dimension, exactly the same as for Optimal.

These numbers raise another question, why does QU report printable area of 12.719 x 18.35?  It is quite closely, but not exactly, consistent with the margins given in Preferences. The margin numbers given in the Size/Loc tab of the Full Page editor suggest a printable area of 12.04x17.97.  One of these is large enough for my 12x18 print, the other is not (without resizing or cropping).  Why are these margins/printable area not the same?

If I press the "Center" button in Size/Loc, the left and right margins are equal, but the top and bottom differ by .09.  Why?  I also get the message about the print cannot be centered within the printable area........   But why?  there seems to be enough printable area.  There is 0.96" of unusable space in the short dimension, leaving 0.04" spare room, seems OK. There is 1.03 unusable in the long dimension, but I can only stand 1.00 inch, so there is the reason for the error message.  It needs to crop or resize.  You were set to Auto Crop, I was set to Auto Resize, either way should do it. 

Once I understand these numbers, I will understand how QU works and how I can exert control over it to achieve my desired result.

Fred, I know you are a master user of QImage, and I would like to learn why you use some of the settings you do.  Specifically, Optimize Enlargement in the driver.

Stan

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Fred A
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 10:56:18 AM »

Quote
You said the Super A3 is the US 13x19 paper selection.  Well, the Epson paper selecetions include two categories of  sizes called US sizes, and the 13x19 is not in either of them.  So that opened the possiblity that for some reason we have different paper selections and I just wanted to get that clarified in case I need to reinstall my program or driver or something.  No problem, we are both using the same thing.

Ok let's get this out of the way.
I have in my hot hand two packages of 13 x 19 paper which also say, 329  x 483 mm    I was trying to tell you that Super A3 is "considered" 13 x 19

Quote
hese numbers raise another question, why does QU report printable area of 12.719 x 18.35?  It is quite closely, but not exactly, consistent with the margins given in Preferences. The margin numbers given in the Size/Loc tab of the Full Page editor suggest a printable area of 12.04x17.97.  One of these is large enough for my 12x18 print, the other is not (without resizing or cropping).  Why are these margins/printable area not the same?

QU report of printable area is generated by the driver.

Qimage will not alter the figures unless you intentionally adjust using Margins.

1) If I check a different Epson that does show 13 x 19  as a choice, the numbers work! (That is: Print + margins = paper size)

2) If I use User Defined page size and set to 13 wide x 19 long, on the 7900, the numbers work! That is: Print + margins = page size.

12.0 + .50 + .51 (rounding off error) = 13.0 inches             18.0 + .5- + .51 + 19.0

3) Last.... If I use Sheet paper selection but user defined page set to 13.0 x 19.0, the numbers work again!   Print + margins, = page size.

See snap
Slowly, without all the extras,,,, you can see the margins are almost equal. The .56 edge is locked by Epson when it uses sheet paper.

Why is there a disparity when you use Super A3, I'm sorry but that sounds like an Epson driver problem because Qimage reports what the driver tells it.
Seems from the evidence, that specifying 13 x 19 paper when the driver allows that selection the numbers  work out. Using Super A3 sheet the numbers seem off.
Either there's a bug in the driver or Super A3 isn't exactly the same as 13 x 19

If I were you, I would tell the printer I am using sheet paper and user defined size of 13 x 19.
If the size of the print isn't critical, you could use a margin adjustment to manually match both top and bottom by adding .44 to the top margin.
Now you have even....    but the compromise is the print size. It needed to change to  11.93 x 17.89.   
Your print shrunk .07 on the short side, and .11 on the long side.

Fred

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Fred A
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 01:03:53 PM »

Stan,
Looks like Terry found the answer.
Super A3 is not exactly the same as 13 x 19

He found this, 330.2 x 482.6 mm = 13.0 x 19.0
Not the same as 329 x 483 as noted in the driver and package...

Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 01:33:47 PM »

Quote
Looks like Terry found the answer
See this table here.
http://www.dpandi.com/paper/index.html
Super A3 and A3+ are different in mm yet nominally the same in inches.

I have an Epson 4900 driver and that says "Super A3 / B 329 x 483 mm" which according to that chart is actually A3+.
What confusion! But don't feel alone, see:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=23226
In Qimage the dimensions require precision, it would be a good idea for Stan to accurately measure the paper he has and see if it agrees with any of the the driver sizes.
If you are not a metric man, 1" = 25.4 mm  Wink
Terry
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Stan Prevost
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 02:39:00 PM »

I did that calculation early on in this process, but dismissed the differences (0-.3-0.4mm, or 0.012-0.016 inch) as insignificant.  And they will usually be insignificant in terms of the final print size, but I have learned that small differences like that can trigger behavior in QImage which I just need to understand better.  And I am not saying that there is any problem in QImage, I know that computer programs make decisions based on numbers, and when numbers reach certain thresholds, certain things happen.  I am just trying to improve my understanding, just my nature. 

Fred, thanks for your helpful and patient replies.  I am going to go off and study this some more to clarify it further in my mind, I will report back with anything that I think might be of value.  Then I can move on to the rest of my issues!

Best Regards,

Stan
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Stan Prevost
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »

Terry -

I am certainly not the Honourable Metric Mann, but I am comfortable with metric, no problem.   Cheesy

Thanks for your reply.

Stan
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tomc
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 03:51:59 PM »

Stan,

I also have v2013, a 7900, and 64 bit Windows 7.

To replicate your problem, I defined a custom 13x19 sheet paper size in the Epson driver. QU reports a printable area of 18.333 x 12.766 for that custom size.

After creating an image with 12x18 proportions, I added it to the print queue and found that whether it works or not depends on the QU page margins setting.

With Center on Physical Page it fails. With Clear Margins it works.

See Edit Preferences / Print and Page Formatting / Page Margins

Some time back I had a problem of a print not being centered on the paper and someone here pointed me to the Center on Physical Page option. That fixed it. So now I'm just passing on what I learned here. Except you need the opposite: Clear Margins rather than center on page.

Tom
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Stan Prevost
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 06:05:05 PM »

Tom, thanks for your contribution.

I have done some more experimentation, fitting in with other activities, so have not finished.  But here is what I have learned so far.  This is not even getting to the point of selecting a print yet.

The Epson driver shows SuperA3 having dimensions of 12.95x19.02 inches.  329x483mm is 12.953x19.016.  These are the same within roundoff to nearest .01 inch.  But it is slightly different than 13x19.  I have a User Defined 13x19" paper size also.

Selecting SuperA3/B, QU reports that the Epson driver reports fixed margins of .1167 L & T, .1181 R, .5514 B.  (By the way, those fixed margins are the same for all sheet paper sizes I tried.)  Those margins allow a maximum printable area of 12.7182"x18.3479".  QU shows 12.719x18.350", again very close.  If we want to center this maximum printable area on the page, I calculate that the margins should be .1181 L & R and .5514 T & B, for a printable area of 12.7168"x17.9132".  Clicking Center on Printable Page, QU shows margins of .1167 L, .1181 R, .5467 T and .5514 B, giving a printable area of 12.7182x17.9179, reported as 12.719x17.919.  While these results are very close, within .006", I don't understand why QU doesn't simply create equal margins to center the printable area.  Seems like you should just choose the largest fixed margin in each direction and duplicate it on each side.  Maybe there is some sublety here that I am not aware of.

But note that in any case, the centered printable area is inadequate for a 12x18" print.  QU will have to crop or resize the print a small amount to fit within the centered printable area.

Since we have learned that SuperA3 is not exactly the same size as 13x19, we should expect different numbers if we select 13x19, possibly triggering different behavior in QU in some cases.

Selecting user-defined 13x19, QU reports that the Epson driver reports fixed margins of .1167 L & T, .1181 R, .5514 B, same as before.  Those margins allow a maximum printable area of 12.7652"x18.3319".  QU shows 12.766x18.333", again very close.  If we want to center this maximum printable area on the page, I calculate that the margins should be .1181 L & R and .5514 T & B, for a printable area of 12.7638"x17.8972".  Clicking Center on Printable Page, QU shows margins of .1167 L, .1181 R, .5467 T and .5514 B, giving a printable area of 12.7652x17.9019, reported as 12.766x17.902.  Again, very close, but again I don't see why QU doesn't simply make the margins equal to the largest value in each direction.

And again, the centered printable area will not accomodate a 12x18 print without cropping or resizing slightly.

My next steps will be to select an image that I want to print 12x18 and explore that some.  I want to see the effects of choosing center, optimal or optimal/spacing.

Stan
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tomc
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 07:13:49 PM »

Stan,

I don't see how you can expect a 12x18 image to be centered on 13x19 paper with this printer.

To center 18" in the 19" dimension requires 0.5" for each margin.

Looking at the printer's minimum margins in portrait mode, the bottom margin is over 0.5", so that leaves less than 0.5" for the top margin.



So 19" minus the 18" image and the 0.55" bottom margin leaves just 0.45" for the top margin.

A further test shows how it can be done. I chose borderless with minimal expansion and after a warning from the driver and a conversion to Super A3 from the custom 13x19, it shows plenty of room:



The driver warning is about the quality near the edges in borderless mode. I often use borderless with roll paper with good results but haven't tried borderless sheets with my 7900.

Tom
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Stan Prevost
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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 11:24:40 PM »

Hi, Tom -

As should have been clear from my last post, in which I discussed how the print would have to be cropped or resized to fit within the centered printable area, I do not think I should be able to get a 12x18 on either 13x19 or SuperA3.  When I started this thread, I did think I could do it, because the printable area shown by QImage was greater than 12x18.  However, as I learned more, and that I was looking at a non-centered printable area, I figured out better.

One of my next areas to explore, after selecting an image to print, is to see how borderless could fit in, and you have provided an advance look into that.  I don't understand borderless yet.  Sure, I understand about expanding the image to bleed slightly beyond the edges, just like optical printing has to do, but I don't understand yet how that overcomes a physical limitation of not being able to print within a certain margin of the edges.  And I will have to learn about the loss of quality near the edges.  But first I will explore auto crop, auto resize, and the QImage error messages.

Thanks,
Stan
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