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Author Topic: Printing to file for an outside printer ~ no output sharpening re Giclee prints!  (Read 13944 times)
Box Brownie
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« on: April 07, 2013, 11:50:40 PM »

Hi All

Whenever I had printed to file for C-type prints I have of course used the QU default output sharpening but I have been looking at getting Giclee prints done and having researched a few different printing companies I cam across the following advice and this has puzzled me:-

They say in a pdf of instructions in regard to the file preparation.
"Please do not apply any digital OUTPUT sharpening as we will apply the correct amount of sharpening to suit the printing media used and the final print size."

Now this surprised me in that for most printing services it was my understanding that the file should be "as is" ready for printing i.e. they will not do anything to the file. In fact what they say reminds more of what I have read for 'stock submissions' where the final output printing is determined by the client buying the image as different output sharpening will be required for say magazine vs book vs poster printing i.e. the size they print it at will be a determining factor.

Though they do say this about the print size/resolution:-
"Image resolution: We request that submitted images have a resolution of 300 pixels per inch with the image at the actual height and width settings that will be used in print. If you would like your file printed at a larger size than the resolution will allow we can upscale submitted files but we require the largest file you have in order to maintain quality."

In broad terms AFAIK it is the sharpening for print size that is important so in similar broad terms just how different will the various Giclee papers be that they each need a different level of output sharpening not related to the print size itself???

Many thanks in advance for any insight & feedback about this IMO unusual criteria they are setting!  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 10:14:29 AM by Box Brownie » Logged
Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 11:18:37 AM »

Quote
I have been looking at getting Giclee prints done
I'm always sceptical when the term Giclee is used; the up-to-date definition is merely a high quality archival ink-jet print. If you have a good pigment ink printer of sufficient size and use QU, you can do it yourself.
Quote
"Please do not apply any digital OUTPUT sharpening as we will apply the correct amount of sharpening to suit the printing media used and the final print size."
This because their interpolation algorithms are crude compared to QU and they have to do this to compensate to some extent.
You could try asking them not to do this as you image has been pre-prepared (by QU) with those factors taken into account. You just need to know what resolution they require.
Terry
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Box Brownie
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 10:18:21 PM »

Quote
I have been looking at getting Giclee prints done
I'm always sceptical when the term Giclee is used; the up-to-date definition is merely a high quality archival ink-jet print. If you have a good pigment ink printer of sufficient size and use QU, you can do it yourself.
Quote
"Please do not apply any digital OUTPUT sharpening as we will apply the correct amount of sharpening to suit the printing media used and the final print size."
This because their interpolation algorithms are crude compared to QU and they have to do this to compensate to some extent.
You could try asking them not to do this as you image has been pre-prepared (by QU) with those factors taken into account. You just need to know what resolution they require.
Terry

Hi Terry

Many thanks for the reply.

I do not have an Inkjet printer just a laser monochrome for docs.

They say 300dpi at the size to be printed.  As mentioned this is the first printing company I have come across who has made the statement re NO sharpening.  But I take your point about asking/telling them I sharpen for output and as such need no such changes......................if they will take such instruction this does this pre suppose that their printer control does not have a default that adds sharpening albeit small that they do not 'turn off'Huh?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 09:48:39 PM by Box Brownie » Logged
sectionq
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 09:32:43 PM »

It sounds more to me like this company actually cares about the quality of the prints that leave their shop and the others only cared about getting as many prints out the door with the minimal effort. The printer being used and the type of media can have a significant effect on what output sharpening is required, if that wasn't the case then why would Qimage give you such a broad range from 0-20 in the sharpening settings.

The process for using the output sharpening in Qimage involves a bit of trial and error, running off a few prints at different settings on your selected media to get it perfect. Once you've figured it out then you're pretty much done, just use that setting each time you use that media. But that's using your own printer/paper and actually seeing for yourself, there is no way to judge the output sharpening on screen, so I don't see how you are going to be able to successfully prepare a sharpened file without even knowing what printer or paper that they're going to be using, even if you did know, it would still be pure chance if you got it bang on. If they are spending all day running off prints with the same handful of different medias then they're going to have a pretty good idea what works by now. As for their interpolation method, well, we're only speculating on that, but I would assume if they're a decent company that they're using a respectable RIP of some kind so it shouldn't be an issue.

I admit that some of the instructions that they give in the pdf are a little specific, but I would guess that they get some pretty poor quality files sent to them so they are just trying to get a reasonable starting point. I'd imagine that the pdf is written for someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of printing so by bandying about resolutions like 300dpi (which is kind of meaningless anyway) they're just trying to ensure that they're at least not going to get sent a family snap web optomised from Facebook or similar. Back to the sharpening, remember that anyone can mess about with online photo editing software these days so I imagine they've received their fair share of oversharpened disasters in the past just because someone got overwhelmed by how amazing they thought something looked on their iphone. Also, some in camera sharpening is terrible sometimes no output sharpening is best to try and soften the effect, I know I've had to do this in the past.

Anyway, as Terry said, find out what the native resolution is of their printer and prepare the file in Q by all means if you are worried about someone else doing any interpolating/upscaling. As for the sharpening, any decent printer will do you a test print (normally for a nominal fee), I'd take advantage of that and send them your Qimage prepared file without sharpening and I'm sure it will come back looking great. You could of course always send them a sharpened version done in Q and ask for it to be printed without any sharpening but you could end up having to do it 2 or 3 times until you get it right at your end. Just a few thoughts.

Jamie



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Box Brownie
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 11:21:18 PM »

Hi Jamie

Ah! now your advice is the opposite to Terry's..................granted yours makes sense on the basis of "one size does not fit all..." and I can see your point in that does the QU default output sharpening suit >90% of papers but as Terry did not qualify his feedback re QU better than the printers algorithms I am not sure what to make of it???
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Terry-M
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 07:02:40 AM »

Quote
granted yours makes sense on the basis of "one size does not fit all...
That is missing the point of Qimage Ultimate print Sharpening.
It is "smart" print sharpening and takes account of a number of variables related to the image and the print size so "one size does fit all".
In other words, once the print sharpening level is set, that can be left for all prints. You may have to make a couple of trial prints to check the setting, but the default level of 5 seems to work for most people. Now that QU has Deep Focus Sharpening, makes smart print sharpening even better.

Quote
but as Terry did not qualify his feedback re QU better than the printers algorithms
The resolution of an image as it is sent to the printer is crucial with respect to print quality and will be different from different for different printers and the old 300ppi fits all is a myth.
The main reason as to why QU produces superior print quality is that it takes account of the printer's native resolution, and interpolates to that value rather than letting the driver do it.
Read the "offical" information about it here http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/tech-prt.htm
Terry
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 07:40:19 AM by Terry-M » Logged
rayw
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 11:07:27 AM »

Hi Box,

I would suggest you don't try to be a smart ass  Roll Eyes . The printer has specified what they want to produce the quality of images they produce. Do what they ask, anything else is likely to be a screw up, and it will be your fault. If you think that 300dpi etc. can be improved, then either phone/contact the printer and discuss options with them, or find another printer who will be prepared to spend time fiddling with images. Sharpness isn't everything Grin

(Basically, I'd  repeat what Jamie said.. but a tad more brusquely Cheesy)

Best wishes,

Ray

(3 smilies in 3 lines ....)
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sectionq
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 08:27:51 PM »

Sorry Terry, and of course you're right about QU with regard to the smart sharpening, but how do we know that the printer in question isn't using QU himself? I use Q and for that reason, if he'd have come to me for a print then I would have given him similar advise.  The point was that Mr Box had already mentioned that he didn't have an inkjet, let alone the media to run off any trial prints so any settings would be pure guess work. Ok, so a sharpness of 5 is a good 'one size fits most' setting and yes QU is pretty incapable of making bad prints, so knowing this, and your printer and media well, the difference between a 5 or an 8 can be the difference between a good print and an amazing one. Just something to ponder...

But yes, talk to the guy, really is the best policy, they'll be able to tell you what printer/paper/software they are using and generally put your mind at rest, unless they print using potatoes!

Was that a bit more brusque this time Ray?  Smiley




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rayw
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 09:10:05 PM »

Hi Jamie,

Well, you're improving Grin, but not quite there yet  Cheesy

Best wishes,

Ray
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Box Brownie
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 10:27:57 PM »

Now you lot stop the squabbling over who can be the most "direct" giving answers to the QU challenged Wink.............................................for sure I am going to pose the question by way of asking for their advice/feedback as to why they are different to other printers I have come across so far.

But of course as the QU community know a thing or two about QU and its benefits for all (most?) output situations I asked 'here' first for some insight  Cool Huh? Smiley
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tomc
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 02:38:03 AM »

My reaction was the same as sectionq: sounds like they use QImage. If they do, then they certainly know best what settings to use in QImage to get the best results with the printer and paper combinations that they use.

Tom
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