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Author Topic: soft proof quality  (Read 22953 times)
brucet
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 10:33:52 PM »

I sent the files via WeTransfer and received their confirmation email on the 28th of June. No other emails from them. Unfortunately time has now run out for them to hold the files.
As I pointed out I'm on a very limited internet service. I can't resend the files again at the moment. When the opportunity comes I'll have another attempt.

Bruce
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brucet
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 01:18:34 AM »

Just another note that may help.
My files are 6000x4000 tiffs. 300ppi. 160meg. (Originating from a D7100). Files from my D7000 which are 4928x3264. 300 ppi. 92 meg, have no problems. If I resize the large files down by changing the 6000x4000 to 4928x3264 and stay at 300ppi I still have an issue. However if I simply resize the files by changing the ppi to 150 then every thing is fine. If I take the 6000x4000, 300ppi tiff file and simply save it as a jpeg, no other changes, still at 300ppi, I get the same problem!!
It seems to be that the higher 300 ppi files at 6000x4000 are having a resolution problem. (I get the same problem on various computers). Change the pixel size ie height and width, and the same issue. But change the resolution and problem solved. No it's not because I need/want the 300ppi.

As I said above. Other programs handle the files just fine. It's only QImage and the softproof screen that the issue becomes an issue!!! And only on the 6000x4000, 300ppi files. (Plus the jpegs of 300 ppi).

regards
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Fred A
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 09:15:40 AM »

Quote
I sent the files via WeTransfer and received their confirmation email on the 28th of June. No other emails from them.
You should have received TWO confirmation files from WETRANSFER. One is confirming that they received the upload, and the second confirms that the recipient downloaded the file.


Quote
It's only QImage and the softproof screen that the issue becomes an issue!!! And only on the 6000x4000, 300ppi files. (Plus the jpegs of 300 ppi).

One more thought to try until you can get the file to Mike.

Since it's ONLY the softproof image that is a problem, and softproof is an image derived from a comparison between the Monitor profile image and the Printer profile image,
can you do some testing by varying the printer profile and/ or the monitor profile and see if you see any changes?
Try a common garden variety profile for both...... like the standard sRGB that comes with Qimage and most programs.

Fred


Fred
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brucet
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 10:06:01 AM »

Thanks Fred A.

1/ only received the one email from WeTransfer. Confirmation that it had been uploaded. No indication that it had been downloaded.
2/ i 'played' with various monitor profiles. sorry but it made no difference.

If it was a monitor profile issue wouldn't it be a problem with other sized files? My brain tells me that there is an issue with large files using 300ppi. Note that all my files are 300ppi. It's only once I downsize by down sizing the resolution that things improve. 150ppi looks great. Until you zoom in!!!! Changing pixel width/height doesn't fix the problem. Just 300ppi files out of the D7100 that create the problem.

Prints are fine. Nothing else is an issue. I just like to use Qimage soft proof and worry that my files may have an issue. I sent a large number of these files off to a client today. I hope they don't come back to me with the same issue.

regards
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 10:08:29 AM by brucet » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 04:15:06 PM »

I'm already 90% certain what the problem is: malformed TIFF where QU can only read the embedded thumbnail inside the TIFF.  I won't be able to do anything until I see the file, so when you are able to send it again on WeTransfer, please send me (or Fred) the link manually.  That is: send a message directly to myself or Fred and don't rely on WeTransfer to send the notification.  If we know when to look for the WeTransfer file, we can sort it out before it expires next time.  Having not received any emails from you since last December, we had no idea to even look for a WeTransfer.  And WeTransfer must have botched the notification.

Regards,
Mike
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brucet
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 11:50:56 PM »

Hi Guys,

I've sent the file via WeTransfer again. However in the rush to do so I screwed up a wee bit. I inserted Mikes email instead of mine. So you'll get the notice!!! I won't get a notice.

Bruce
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 12:39:19 PM »

Got it.  Thanks!  I can see the problem.  The TIFF itself has what appears to be demosaicing artifacts.  Zoom in (a lot) on the rear wheel of the bike and look at the bright area through the spokes near the top of the rear wheel.  You can use any program you like to zoom in there as they all show it but I used QU's examiner.  You can see demosaicing artifacts (looks like a checkerboard pattern).  Those are what is causing the image to look noisy/jaggy.  When the image is scaled down to fit on the screen, those checkerboard patterns overlap in such a way that they create even larger artifacts.  Clear up those artifacts and you not only clear up the problem but have a much nicer and higher resolution image!

Now, as to what caused it... you'll have to find what is causing it in your workflow.  My suggestion is to just work directly with the raw images from your D7100 in QU because QU won't create artifacts like that and it'll create a higher quality final result anyway.  If you're "stuck on" your current workflow, then my suggestion is to do your workflow steps one at a time to see where the artifacts are creeping in.  That type of artifact usually creeps in when the original raw is decoded so I would suspect Capture NX (are you using an old version?).  That type of artifact is typically a result of the raw photo not being decoded properly.

In any case, this is an indication that you need to find what is causing the artifacts in your image.  Clearing those up has many benefits.

Regards,
Mike
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 06:04:46 PM »

It hit me that I should post a picture of what I'm talking about as many may not know what demosaicing artifacts look like.  You can see them in the attached zoomed crop.  Those checkerboard pixel patterns are simply creating aliasing as the picture is downsampled to fit into different sizes and when they align at certain zooms, you get the grainy look.

Again, these artifacts are in the TIFF itself: they are not created by QU.

Click the thumbnail below to enlarge.

Mike
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brucet
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 10:30:55 PM »

Thanks Mike.
I see what you are saying, But? There's always a BUT!!!!!

But why is it only an issue in QImage. Especially the soft proof view. If I view at 100% in a number of other programs I don't see the demosaicing. (100% is a realistic limit without pixel peeping). Sure if I keep zooming in as you have done it is there. So yes it's there but only obvious in QImage.
I use Nikon's own Capture NX-D, (yes it's a beta version), one would think Nikon knows how to convert an NEF. The rest of my work flow has been the same forever.
So the question comes back to why only in QImage with only tiffs out of the D7100? And why at views far less than 100%? ie a 20% view in QImage still shows the problem. Almost as though QImage is exaggerating it.

I'll continue to use QImage as I believe in the printing capabilities of it. It's just unfortunate that the issue with soft proofing has an influence on what you see.

regards
Bruce
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brucet
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2014, 01:15:12 AM »

OK I've got a big spoon for my share of humble pie!!!!!!!

I've been doing some MORE tests!

I went back to an old version of AfterShotPro. Converted said files and started over. Guess what? Go on guess!
The issue all but disappeared. (Caveat. At 100% in PSPx6 neither conversion shows any sign of the problem. At 200% the first signs begin with the NX-D conversion. At 300%, a silly pixel peeping exercise, both files show the problem).

So somehow Nikon's Capture NX-D and the D7100, without an antialiasing filter, can't handling the files as well. Well does Nikon have a problem???
AfterShotPro doesn't give as clean/sharp a result but nor does it bother the issue.

Leaves just one question though. Why does QImage 'exaggerate/show' the problem even on a relatively small soft proof screen? ie the soft proof screen on my work computer is about 25% view. Yet at 100% in PSPx6 there is no sign of the issue let alone at 25%. Only at much high zoom rates.

regards
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2014, 12:52:34 PM »

As I said, the problem is caused by aliasing: QU doesn't do antialiasing outside of the image editor because that is not needed unless there is a problem with the image.  QU is not the problem here.  Your images are ruined and QU is just telling you something is wrong.  If you only used those other tools that "hide" the problem, you would never have known that it is time to use something other than Capture NX.  Use QU and your raws won't be ruined.

Mike
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brucet
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2014, 10:33:08 PM »

Thanks Mike. I followed your advice and tried a few images using QU for raw conversion. Sorry to say that I still get the same results. Even the same NEF. It's something more than antialiasing/demosaicing. Even uniform surfaces and their edges come up with the 'jaggies' in QU.

For some reason QU is doing/highlighting an issue that other programs can handle.

Thanks for the help. I'll stick to my known work flow and hope that the penny falls at sometime.

regards
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Fred A
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2014, 09:01:25 AM »

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For some reason QU is doing/highlighting an issue that other programs can handle.

Please send a RAW file to us..   That will solve the whole question.

Fred
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brucet
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2014, 12:49:07 AM »

Fred A I've shot off a raw to Mike. Please keep in mind though that I'm heavily editing my files. So the issue itself may not occur with just a raw conversion. (It does if you push the conversion. I've tried that> I also realise that editing will highlight any issues). It maybe/is my work flow that's exagerating the problem. My testing has always been with the full edited version/s. The file we have been using is about the worst of the examples. I have others where you really have to look hard and only experience the 'jaggies'. The example I sent you does have a 'conflict' area with the siding/boards in the background. The horizontal grain is a problem! On the sample I've sent you take note of the horizontal lines or straight lines. They get the 'jaggies'. Look at the top of the Firestone sign. Those get very jagged and don't do so with other programs.

I'm interested in what's happening. Why is the issue only apparent in QImage and not in other programs? (It is in the files. But in QImage they appear at 25% while other programs I have to zoom into 200-300% to see the problem which is not realistic). And why is it only from files/nefs out of the D7100? Everything else works just fine. Good god I've converted, edited many files from the D7000 and D7100 and run them through various converters testing. Only the D7100 files present a problem and only in QImage.

I know I'm spending too much time on this. I can ignore it and the prints are just fine out of QImage. My files are fine in other programs. I just want to know WHY? And sleep at night!!!

Regards
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2014, 01:52:20 PM »

Fred A I've shot off a raw to Mike.

How and where did you send it?  I've received nothing from you from your email address or WeTransfer.

Mike
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