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Author Topic: The segments in Raw Refine  (Read 12998 times)
tonygamble
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« on: November 16, 2012, 04:37:58 PM »

I've moved to QU from Lightroom to handle my RAW files.

I'm satisfied that I am getting better images. Now I want to speed my workflow.

I've found that, as long as my exposures are mostly 'on the button' all I need to add is a filter that increases the DFS to 5 and 100 and alters the curve at 25% and 75% to add some more contrast.

I then call up the shots with the hover/spacebar action and, due to Mike's clever algorithms, a lot need no further work.

When work is needed I generally solve it by using Raw Refine and either adjusting the Fill Bar or by using another rectangle to alter the exposure.

Question One. Can someone remind me how to move the Fill slider up or down by using the centre key of a mouse? I read it somewhere but cannot find the post. I am sure clicking is much more accurate than sliding!

Question Two. Can someone explain the methodology by which the contents of the nine rectangles determine the overall exposure? It seems that the proportion of the rectangle that is dark or light is not really relevant - it is the range that counts.

Likewise I cannot usually see any difference between the blue option that does not provide highlight recovery or the two that are supposed to. When should I expect to see a real difference?

At the moment I am working by Trial and Error. I am sure my workflow would increase in speed significantly if I knew the answers to the above two puzzles.

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Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 06:33:29 PM »

Quote
When work is needed I generally solve it by using Raw Refine and either adjusting the Fill Bar or by using another rectangle to alter the exposure.

Question One. Can someone remind me how to move the Fill slider up or down by using the centre key of a mouse? I read it somewhere but cannot find the post. I am sure clicking is much more accurate than sliding!
Not quite with you on this, Tony.
Fill slider is horizontal, and will move by clicking at either end, right clicking to set back to default, or dragging the Fill slider.
Center mouse works the magnifying glass to see detail.

Quote
Question Two. Can someone explain the methodology by which the contents of the nine rectangles determine the overall exposure? It seems that the proportion of the rectangle that is dark or light is not really relevant - it is the range that counts.

Likewise I cannot usually see any difference between the blue option that does not provide highlight recovery or the two that are supposed to. When should I expect to see a real difference?

At the moment I am working by Trial and Error. I am sure my workflow would increase in speed significantly if I knew the answers to the above two puzzles.

There are nine rectangles, each with three selections, giving you 27 basic exposures... plus infinite matching Fill to go with them. (The fill is changing automatically when you change rectangles.)

The differences are sometimes eye blinking bold and sometimes barely noticeable depending on the makeup of the image.... Depends on what and where are the important parts of the image. Are you willing to sacrifice certain areas of detail for the sake of other areas.
There is no formula.
You do not put chocolate icing over everything you eat. Depends on the food.

If you find that you need more sharpening on every image, either buy a better lens, or adjust the default sharpening in EDIT PREFERENCES, RAW OPTIONS and move the slider to the left a lot.

Hope this helps,

Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 07:47:31 PM »

Quote
Can someone explain the methodology by which the contents of the nine rectangles determine the overall exposure? It seems that the proportion of the rectangle that is dark or light is not really relevant - it is the range that counts.
The way the Blue rectangle option and the Red and Magenta options work are a little different.
My understanding is that when using Blue, it takes into account the whole image as well as the selected rectangle whereas the Red & Magenta set the exposure for the whole image based on the selected rectangle.
Although Red & Magenta are especially useful for highlight recovery, it often pays to experiment and use either of those in other bright areas, not necessarily "blown". The aim is to get the best contrast across the image as highlight recovery will reduce contrast, as does increasing Fill.
Trying different rectangle with any of the options only takes a few seconds for each one.
Magenta is similar in effect to Red except it does auto back levels too. See
Quote
.
There is a learning video on Raw Refine which explains most of these points; the magenta rectangle option was not available when the video was made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=qjkASfTzfFA&vq=hd720
I think Fred was not quite right with "Centre mouse works the magnifying glass to see detail."
Centre  mouse button shows near grey areas to assist with white balance. The zoom (magnifier) has its own icon.
Terry

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Fred A
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 08:04:27 PM »

You are partially correct Terry. Center mouse depress changes the screen to show where white or gray areas are located to aid in White Balance, but my Center mouse button is a wheel. Rotating that one click of the center mouse wheel, gives me a magnifying glass!

Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 08:19:18 PM »

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but my Center mouse button is a wheel. Rotating that one click of the center mouse wheel, gives me a magnifying glass!
I don't use the magnify feature that often so I'd forgotten that again  Roll Eyes
You reminded me about it a few weeks ago too  Embarrassed
I do have a wheel mouse.
Terry
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Fred A
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 08:53:10 PM »

and you reminded me of the center button being an alternate way to get the reversed screen for the White Balance... I usually use the CTRL key for that.
I also forgot about the little icon to click on the magnifying glass, so I am equally refreshed. :-)

Fred
Thanks!
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tonygamble
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »

Lots of good stuff there guys. Thank you.

"My understanding is that when using Blue, it takes into account the whole image as well as the selected rectangle whereas the Red & Magenta set the exposure for the whole image based on the selected rectangle."

Yes there is a lot of difference in that.

It will be interesting to hear what other QU users use as their workflow to reduce the hit and miss system I'm currently using.

T.
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Fred A
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 10:39:35 AM »

Quote
It will be interesting to hear what other QU users use as their workflow to reduce the hit and miss system I'm currently using.

Tony,
Somewhere along the line, I think someone has given you the wrong idea about processing raw images.
Qimage does a brilliant job in reading the raw images , and applying an algorithmic logic to the processing. Not only exposure setting, but Full light too if needed.
Now, stop there for a moment.
Qimage does not apply negative Fill. It will go to zero Fill, but minus settings are user invoked.
Minus fill increases contrast... something you seem to feel the need of excessive amounts.
That's fine! Apply a negative fill.   
Your answer should be that will make your images too dark.
Right you are!
So now, back up a step to the 9 grid rectangles and the three selections per rectangle.
No one knows but you what part of the image needs what unless you send one to me.   You were kind enough to do that with that portrait of the pretty lady.  In 10 seconds it was done!
But if you feel the image needs more contrast before you get to the editor, simply select a grid location that makes the exposure change to a lighter image, and add MINUS or negative fill numbers (Move fill slider to the left).

You can see by the three samples that  #122 is the Qimage initial read of the entire image

You can see that 119 has the lower center grid selected using the BLUE colored grid. That made the whole exposure change to give a lighter image.
Then NEGATIVE FILL was added for increased contrast and lower brightness.


You can see that you have infinite control in 123 where I left the exposure at default (No grid selected) and still added a Negative FILL for effect!   
You can do anything you want, but you have to learn....

Take an afternoon off and experiment.
Send a tricky image to me and /or Terry via the system we used and ask for suggestions.

Tony many years ago, before color film, I earned my living sitting at a roll paper printing machine, deciding by eye how each negative should be exposed for printing.
It took practice and patience, to get really good at it.
There was a "normal" button for people to be able to print with these machines, but there were 5 buttons and you could use two at a time to get half way between exposures....
Same principle.... Practice...

With Qimage Ultimate you have an infinite supply of nuance tweaks....  40 clicks wide on teh fill control which is not contrast... It's called FILL because it is a combination of Contrast, Gamma curve, brightness, and saturation all rolled into a brilliant package for you to use.

Fred



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tonygamble
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 11:59:45 AM »

That's fascinating Fred.

I had never heard of 'negative fill' and its effects. For interest I did a 'search' for the two words in any message and your's is the only one that speaks of it!

Yes, I go for a bit more contrast than lots of other prefer. For interest I posted a folder a couple of hours ago on the Lightroom forum and some clever soul challenged my white balance. Snag is that he did not have the advantage of seeing how gloomy the shots would have been if the balance had been applied.

Until five minutes ago I never realised that the Fill bar could be used to boost contrast. So much faster than going into Edit Image.

I am going to try to attach three images of a rather failing firework shot.
Number 1 is the unaltered RAW
Number 2 is clicking the bottom right (dark) area
Number 2 is introducing negative Fill

Not a wonderful result - but more to my contrasty liking. No, it is a rubbish shot - but I post it to show I understand the theory.

Now to experiment some more.

Bye for the mo'.

Tony
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Fred A
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »

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Snag is that he did not have the advantage of seeing how gloomy the shots would have been if the balance had been applied.

I think I need to challenge the statement above.

If the White Balance is off and needs some tweaking, in almost every case, the entire image will come to life, colors more vivid and realistic. Remember, the eye makes a habit of compensating all the time when we look at a scene.
I have two simple samples below.
Like a woman's face cream commercial, BEFORE and AFTER.
It's not easy to see the drama when I have to keep the file size under 128K
But I'm sure you can imagine a large scene.

All I did was click the WB tool, found a nice place that should be white or gray in the image and click!!!
It should  never get muddy. You didn't get it right if you did make it worse.

I am going to give you another post for the second sample. It follows.
Fred
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Fred A
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 01:18:50 PM »

Just two more here.
Here's where I want you to be TONY G and not read color braniac blogs.

There are parts to White Balance.  You perform a WB when you want the image to be normal, colors normal, and to do this, we try to make something in the image that is gray, (Like a road surface, a white line, a flag....) show close to an even RGB. That gray road surface is now reading 120, 120, 120. Excellent!

There is also the color of the light,,, color temperature is what it is called.
Morning light; warm, yellow,
Mid day, cooler and bluer....

Well, what should we do now?  A morning shot, pretty warm and yellow,  casting some warmth into every color of the shot.
Do we correct the white balance?  Do we leave it as shot?

This is where no one decides for you.  You listen to your senses, and make it Tony's shot, they way you saw it and the reason you shot it!

#005 has White Balance applied.
#006 is out of the camera, with a warm look because it was shot at 8:30 am.

Ok last thought.  Suppose you thought: hmmm  005 is a bit cold and steely looking, but 006 is a bit warm and over the top warm, well that's what we have that nice White Balance slider for.

W is for Warmer...... C is for Cooler   click click click and you set it the way Tony wants it!

Fred
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tonygamble
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 01:39:28 PM »

What I read you to be saying, Fred, is that the first thing is to get the WB right.

Then optimise the tones.

Then warm, or cool, the image to suit.

I can see the logic. In fact, by luck, I found that sorting the WB made it easier to sort the tones.

But I fell into the trap of thinking that if it came out of the camera warm I could get away with leaving it like that.

I learn by the hour.

Thanks again, Fred.
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Fred A
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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 12:54:21 PM »

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I learn by the hour.

Hi Tony,
This is not only for you, but for all the others that are not quite SURE!!!

The other day, you mentioned something that the red grid and the magenta grid showed no difference to you.
I tried to explain that it depended on the image and the camera.
Here's an example.

The Scene:   You are walking along the river. It's early and not full daylight. You take a shot!  Snap #011.

You hear noises, some rustling sounds, and some moaniing?   Sex in the weeds? 
I must see what they are doing?
I will adjust the exposure in my refine screen by clicking on the Blue grid over the weeds. That will tell Qimage that the lower center area is most important to expose properly, and I want to peek at the .... well you know!

See snap #012
Yes! That's what I wanted to see, but bad luck, they must have gone into the river skinny-dipping.

Hmmm, but look at the image. I lost all but the bushes.
I have to fix that. I will change the BLUE color of the grid selector to RED.  See #013. 

That's better. I got the far shoreline back, but still a little mushy

So I click on the same grid and change the red selection to the Magenta choice (where Q-Ultimate sets the black level better than your camera did)
See snap #014

Better? It sure is. Difference between red grid and magenta.... ??   

Yes, but then I fell into the river leaning in to see that naked lady! 
The cold water shrunk my 300 mm lens to a 100.
Disaster.
Fred

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Jeff
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 03:18:41 PM »

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I learn by the hour.


Yes, but then I fell into the river leaning in to see that naked lady! 
The cold water shrunk my 300 mm lens to a 100.
Disaster.
Fred



300mm?  You brag sir.

Jeff

 
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Terry-M
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 12:26:08 PM »

Tony,
going back a few posts -
Quote
It will be interesting to hear what other QU users use as their workflow to reduce the hit and miss system I'm currently using.
Your comment led me to write down the total process that I use, from preparation of my camera to the final result of prints and other copies of the image. It's always a useful exercise to do as it helps to ensure the process is logical and efficient - something I learned from my days in manufacturing industry.
Here is just a section of my process covering this particular topic. Note that it mentions using a grey card image for white balance setting, that is part of my shooting process almost every time I use my camera.
5.   RAW Processing
This assumes RAW Preferences are already set in QU
5.1.   Set White balance for the folder of images.
NB. the initial setting of WB using grey card assumes that a grey a card image has been made for each lighting condition encountered during the photo session: sunny, cloudy, shade, indoors etc. It also assumes that camera Auto WB is not used so that the camera does change WB with each shot. The grey card shots must be as representative as possible of the light on the subject; that usually means holding it close to the subject such as a face, flower or even a building.
  5.1.1.   Open the refine screen for a set of selected images, including the grey card image, either as thumbs or in the queue. The grey card image should be the first.
                NB. each set will be those images taken under the same light conditions and associated with the appropriate grey card image.
  5.1.2.   Set the WB on the grey card image and copy the WB setting to the set of images.
  5.1.3.   Repeat for any other sets of images with a different WB grey card image.
5.2.   Raw refine individual images.
  5.2.1.   Check WB, if required adjust with WB slider or use dropper on image.
                NB.Using a grey card and copying WB to other images is far from being infallible, mixed lighting on a subject and other changes will make a difference. Hence the need to use the grey card technique with caution and review each image.
  5.2.2.   Check exposure, visually and with right mouse button to read RGB values.
  5.2.3.   Adjust exposure if required including any highlight recovery: try different rectangle outline colours in different positions.
  5.2.4.   Adjust Fill if required.
  5.2.5.   Adjust HDR slider if required.
  5.2.6.   Save and move to next image.
6.   Image Editing
This is not always necessary but if additional image contrast, sharpening, noise reduction, straightening, colour changes etc. are required, then open the image in the editor.
6.1.   Double click the QU thumbnail to open the editor.
6.2.   Make any adjustments as required with the tools provided by the editor.
6.3.   Re-visit the raw refine screen if further fine adjustments are required. There is a button on the editor screen to do this directly.

A couple of points to note:
- The steps in the raw refine process both for setting WB and then individual image refining are in no way a random sequence but what I believe to be the logical process to get the best result.
- QU offers a "total" solution to producing a finished image whether digital or print. What is not included is the prior use of QU Flash card Copy/Move to create folders on multiple drives and re-name the images. If you do need to use the facilities of an external editor, than that is integrated by setting that as such in QU.

Terry
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 04:29:04 PM by Terry-M » Logged
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