Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Technical Discussions => Articles => Topic started by: admin on October 30, 2009, 11:29:39 PM



Title: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on October 30, 2009, 11:29:39 PM

November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child


Background

The internet is sure to be flooded with Windows 7 reviews.  Some reviewers may feel that they can't say anything negative about Microsoft's new kid on the block but those who know me, know that I tend not to sugar coat and I speak my mind.  For me, the transition to Windows 7 was far from smooth and I'm hoping this article will serve to open a few eyes for those who think they are about to jump in a brand new car, turn the key, and drive off into the sunset.  Like all reviewers, I'm new to the public release of Windows 7 but having upgraded from and to just about every prior MS operating system, allow me to share my views on why Windows 7 is by far the worst transition to date and why, as an end user, you may not (at least immediately) realize much benefit from what is being touted as the "fix for the Vista blunder".

 

Windows 7 Upgrade

As I mentioned above, I've done a lot of upgrading in the past and I've upgraded just about every Windows OS that has ever existed.  Until now, most people seem to recognize the XP-to-Vista upgrade as the most difficult.  When going from XP to Vista, some drivers for older equipment were not supported, some software needed to be upgraded or even dropped and new software purchased.  But at least XP would upgrade to Vista.  I have one of the more complex setups with more software than most users.  I have equipment that has to run properly, compilers where I need to do my coding work that I have to rely on, and many utilities and software programs that I must use in my daily computer programming job.  When I upgraded from XP to Vista, it was a breeze.  Sure, I had an old scanner that didn't have a Vista driver and a couple software programs that were no longer supported that I had to give up.  Not a big deal in the scheme of things.

When you use a computer as much as I do, you collect things.  It's like living in a house for a long time and then facing the prospect of moving.  You acquire a lot of "stuff" over time.  With my move from XP to Vista, you upgrade and it's like having a new house with all your old familiar "stuff" in it.  You find a thing or two in this or that corner that you need to tend to, but it doesn't slow you down much and you can enjoy your new home.  Whether or not you need to do house cleaning is up to you.

Now with Windows 7, there is an upgrade path that should allow you to get that new house around your old "stuff" but it is buggy and from what I understand, rarely works.  Of course, if you have XP, there is no (real) upgrade path so we're just talking about Vista users here.  The upgrade from Vista x64 to Windows 7 x64 sure didn't work for me and I spent two full days pulling out every trick from my "hacker" book to try to coax the updater to work.  It would install for about 2 hours and then roll back, bringing you back to Vista and then reporting that the upgrade didn't work and your "old house" had been restored.  Oh what a joy to see the install progress bar move backward when the rollback occurs.  >:-/  Keep in mind that the Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor said my machine was ready to upgrade at this point and I even uninstalled ALL of the programs that it said I might even have the slightest problem running in Windows 7.  Some "hacking" into the error logs (ones MS doesn't even tell you about) showed that Windows 7 failed to install because it didn't like a registry key related to a bluetooth driver: I don't even have any bluetooth software or hardware on my machine!  After doing a search, it appeared I wasn't the only one and the best answer to the problem was "Just do a clean install.  That's better anyway".  There's some truth to that, but for people who are time pressed, be aware that you may have bitten off more than you wanted to chew!  So when the upgrade failed, as it seems to do for a fair percentage of people going from Vista to Windows 7, I gave up and just did a clean install.

 

Windows 7 Clean Install

Okay.  So here is where I tell you that I decided on the clean install and everything went smoothly, right?  Oh how I wish!  The install itself went relatively smoothly as did the check for (and installation of) Windows updates.  Of course, I made a backup before I started it, and I was greeted by a fresh Windows background and a desktop with no software: all as expected with a clean install.  No problem so far.  My monitor didn't look quite right, however, and I soon noticed that Windows 7 had installed a video driver for my Nvidia graphics card and a driver for my HP w2408H monitor that would not even allow the true resolution of the monitor (1920x1200).  Never had a problem with that in Vista, but I figured that's okay, I'll just go to Nvidia and download their latest Windows 7 driver.  Windows 7 would only allow 1920x1080 resolution which as you may know, doesn't look very nice on an LCD monitor that doesn't use that native resolution.  So, a half hour later and a new Nvidia driver installed, I had 1920x1200 and things were looking up.  Let's ignore for now the fact that as soon as I installed the (three day old and much newer) Nvidia driver, Windows 7 started complaining immediately that it wanted to install an "update" that would put the 5 month old 1920x1080 driver back in.  So I just checked the box to "hide" that upgrade.  Step one complete.  Now I have a computer I can boot up.

Next I dug out my ColorVision Spyder and proceeded to calibrate and profile my monitor.  The software installed, the driver for the monitor colorimeter worked fine, and I had a profile.  But now the problem.  When I first boot Windows 7 I can see the Colorvision startup program change the color in the graphics card to look nice, and about 2 seconds later, Windows 7 overrides it and brings it back to the uncalibrated state.  Seems Windows 7 now has a horribly convoluted scheme for color management and a new calibration option that can be turned on or off.  Well, even after turning that off and trying every trick in the book, Windows 7 still overrides the "gamma ramp" function in the monitor profiling software and I just couldn't get it to work.  My only solution at this point was to uninstall the monitor calibration tool and calibrate using the Nvidia control panel: the useless "calibration" option in Windows 7 couldn't touch what needed to be corrected on the monitor but fortunately the Nvidia control panel (software that comes with the video graphics card driver) worked well.  Step two complete: the monitor is now such that I can read it without getting a headache.

Now that I have an operating computer and viewable monitor, the next step was to start reinstalling my applications and data.  No problem.  I have those backed up and I'll restore my data folder and subfolders with Acronis.  Did that and all went smoothly.  Or so I thought.  I keep all my purchased and downloaded software and their associated serial numbers in subfolders where I can get to them easily.  For example, I have a subfolder named "SureThing" where I store the install file for Sure Thing CD Labeler and the associated "password.txt" file that holds the serial number for that program.  No problem, just click on the "stcd5setup.exe" file to start the installation.  To my surprise: "Access Denied".  What!?  I have admin rights!  Okay, let's calm down and search the internet to see what others have found.  Well, looks like the "System" owns the folders and files.  So I'll just use properties and change security settings.  Now I'm the owner.  Let's try this again.  Access Denied!  I can't even open EXE files that are in folders I own.  After a second look, my user account, even though it has admin rights, doesn't have "full control" rights on the folders and files.  Let's try changing my access to "Full Control" making sure to check the box that propagates subfolders and files too.  Now I'm the owner and I have all possible access rights.  Let's try again.  Access Denied! 

Okay.  Calm down.  Let's search the internet some more.  I tried a clever little utility that adds an option to the right click menu called "Grant Full Admin Rights".  Tried that.  Access Denied!  I found a few references saying that the Windows Installer actually owns and prevents access to things like install files.  The recommendation was to give full control to the "Everyone" group.  OK.  Did that.  In fact, I got mad and gave every account on the list including "Authenticated User" and "Everyone" full access.  Should work now.  Let's try again.  Access Denied!  Let's search the internet some more.  Now I find a reference that says you should get rid of some of the "superfluous" user groups in the access rights.  Now I'm one step shy of exploding, so I'm angry enough to select the main folder, delete every group/user in the access list that I could possibly delete.  Let's get rid of everything that could be causing trouble that is "deletable" by the administrator and then add myself back as the owner with full access rights.  Done.  Now let's try again.  IT WORKED!  At this point I had been at this for hours, maybe close to half a day, just to gain access to my own data in my own folders.  I was so giddy at this point that I may have peed just a little.  :-)

Now that I had access to my data, I began installing software.  A few, like Pegasus Mail, had minor glitches but I was beyond that at this point.  If I could get my machine "usable" I would be happy.  At this point I had been at the Windows 7 upgrade path for three full days.  When I took a break from my routine and decided to play some streaming media (WMV videos), ones that I had streamed many times before, on other computers on the network, they played about 20% too slow with the video and audio both running slow.  People had deep voices, singers sang a half octave too low, and so on.  I tried tweaking the WMP12 interface every way possible, but I still haven't figured that one out!  I was more interested in why my Canon Pro9000 printer couldn't be used from other networked PC's. 

There was no problem with Vista installed on the print server machine but now that Windows 7 is installed, all PC's on the network inform the user that the print server has the "wrong" driver installed.  After some poking and prodding, I found that I had to install a supplementary driver on the Windows 7 machine: an x86 driver because the other computers were x86 and not 64 bit.  OK.  So I check the box that says install an additional "x86" driver and at that point, Windows 7 responds with "tell me where to find it".  How should I know?  If Windows doesn't know, where would I go to get that?  All the installable drivers on the Canon site are EXE files.  Well, being the "hacker at heart" that I am, I decide to download the x86 EXE install from Canon, open WinZip on the EXE, and unzip the files embedded in the EXE to a folder.  Yeah, that's lame "hackery" but it's still "hacking" because most people wouldn't even realize they can unzip an EXE.  Sure enough, there's the .INF file that Windows is looking for.  I point the additional-drivers dialog in Windows 7 at that folder and I get "There is no Canon Inkjet Pro9000 in this folder".  It seems in MS's infinite wisdom, they decided to add "Inkjet" to the printer name.  Now Windows sees the printer as "Canon Inkjet Pro9000" instead of "Canon Pro9000".  So then I open Notepad and manually search and replace every instance of "Canon Pro9000" in the .INF file, changing them to "Canon Inkjet Pro9000".  IT WORKED!  Wow!!!  That process sure seems logical for the average end user to be able to accomplish doesn't it?

 

Summary: Worth it?

The above just touches on the "highlights" (if you can call them high) of my install.  There were other more minor issues that I had to "hack" to fix, like using a hex editor to change machine code in my compiler, but those were easy compared to the above.  Some of it is a learning curve, but you have to ask yourself why things like printer names were changed to make them incompatible or why the upgrade stalls on a device I don't even have, forcing me to do a clean install.  Maybe all this effort will be worth it.  Is Windows 7 really so good that it is worth going through the equivalent of eating razor blades?  We'll see.  Honestly, I haven't even had the time at this point to check out some of the new features in Windows 7.  People talk about things like "Aero Snap" and some cool features.  Those might be nice and I'm sure there are some more things I'll appreciate over time.  I'll tell you, however, in no uncertain terms that if I didn't have to upgrade to Windows 7 due to my business and the fact that I have to support it to my customers, I wouldn't do it!  To me, Windows 7 is all the things people hated about Vista and more!  When XP just started to get really stable, here comes Vista, the new kid on the block.  Vista is a bit of a punk, defiant in some ways and a bit unrefined yet having such potential.  Fast forward and now that Vista honestly has become quite stable, here comes Vista's demon seed: Windows 7.  Win7 is even more defiant than Vista and it seems has lost some of its roots, forgetting a few things about where it came from and thumbing its nose at those who choose to be friends with XP or Vista.  Maybe that's a good thing and I'm just getting too old for this, eh?  :-D  Time will tell.  I guess around the time I get used to living with Win7 and all it's idiosyncrasies, Win7 will give birth to yet another punk kid that will kick my butt for good!  Win7 gave it a good try and to be honest, I was a gnat's hair from just restoring my Vista backup and calling it quits.  I may be (a little) over 40 but the hacker in me made me keep going.  Who knows, maybe the punk kid will grow on me and you'll see another article soon!  :-)  Still, I can't help feeling sorry for "the masses".  If someone with a computer science degree who has been programming computers since the first IBM PC with dual floppy's hit the road in 1981 can go 12 rounds with Win7 and barely pull off a win in round 12, Apple is going to have a field day making new "Hi, I'm a Mac" commercials.  Buy your Apple stock now!  ;-)

Oh, and if you're just visiting this site, go buy some of my software.  Looks like getting software that actually works is becoming more and more difficult these days.  If not enough people buy it, I may have to add some animated controls, glowing buttons, raise the price, make it so the underlying "guts" don't work as they should, and claim that everything is much better than before.  Maybe then everyone would run out and buy it.  :-}

Mike Chaney



Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on October 31, 2009, 08:16:18 AM
An interesting read.

I have seen various 7 reviews which seem to say that win 7 is a must buy, but I have not seen one feature that I would consider a must have.

My view is why bother, let alone spend money, XP works fine, the only Vista improvement on XP I have found is that creating a folder in Vista takes on a second or two, in XP it takes about 15 seconds.  I have not worked out the cost per second.

I will be keeping my wallet closed.

Jeff


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on October 31, 2009, 09:36:37 AM
Quote
I will be keeping my wallet closed

For what it's worth (FWIW) I did succumb to the low priced sale that Amazon offered a few months ago.
They had an Upgrade box from Vista to W7 for 49.95 USD.
I have XP and another hard drive with Vista running very well, and then came the surprise. I bought the wrong W7. !!!
I had Vista Ultimate 32, and for some reason, I thought I had a cheaper version, the Home Premium edition.
Needless to say, the Upgrade didn't work.

But much to my surprise, there was a small white card in the box that said, "Follow these instructions to install over XP."
I tried that, and it worked!!  I had a nice fresh install of W7 on the hard drive that had originally been running XP.  (I have a few Acronis full image backups of the latest days of XP, in case).
The only thing that it did well, was to find the other computers on my network.
OOps!   It is W7 32 bit, and it was suggested by a guru whose initials are MC, that as long as I was installing, use the OTHER DVD in the box; the 64 bit install.
So I erased the 32 bit and installed the 64 bit last night.
It installed very easily (fresh install) and I went to bed.

I must add to Mike's dissertation. One missing item that is a royal PITA, Say what you want, this is a ROYAL PITA. NO EMAIL CLIENT.

Mike uses Pegasus. He installed it. He is happy. I was using Windows Mail in Vista and Outlook Express in XP. This puppy has no email client.
Can you imagine writing all this code for W7 with 10,000 people working on creating W7, and no email?
Conservatively, I'd bet there are 1/2 a billion people out there running some version of Windows. You expect them to buy W7 and not have email?
I did download MS LIVE MAIL last night that should work after I get it set up: it asks for Pop server and smtp server and all the rest.... you don't remember? You better find out.
See what I mean?   Who would buy this OS knowing there's no email, and be expected to find a client, install the client, and set up the client manually?

So far, that's where I am.
Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on October 31, 2009, 03:11:16 PM
You're just getting started my friend.  You're standing at the edge.  The further you walk in, the deeper the poo gets.  ;)

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on October 31, 2009, 03:45:09 PM
Hmmm.
Windows 7 just found my printer, or did it? 
It says I have an Epson R800. I have an Epson R1800.
Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: BrianPrice on November 03, 2009, 02:57:56 PM
Quote
I must add to Mike's dissertation. One missing item that is a royal PITA, Say what you want, this is a ROYAL PITA. NO EMAIL CLIENT.

Fred
You can blame the EU (European Union) for that. They threatened to fine Microsoft a Zillion dollars if they didn't leave the choice of mail client up to the user. Mind you, the EU are to blame for just about everything - a few years ago they tried to ban bent bananas.
I tried Live Mail on XP and I couldn't get it to work like Outlook Express or Windows Mail, so I can see why a lot of people are going for Thunderbird.

Brian


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 03, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
Quote
I tried Live Mail on XP and I couldn't get it to work like Outlook Express or Windows Mail, so I can see why a lot of people are going for Thunderbird.

Brian,
Thanks for the information. I tend to blame MS for everything  :o
As for the mail client, Outlook Express is still running in XP, and I have Windows Live Mail running in my Vista Ult. and my Windows 7.
Didn't mean to mislead.

I am awfully tired of trying to find 64 bit W7 drivers... :'( :'( :'(

But it keeps an old bugger alert and alive.
Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 03, 2009, 11:40:33 PM
Microsoft brought their new profiling system (in simplistic terms) to bear in Vista.  It was generally considered to be better than the Adobe, et al we've been using until then but had virtually no support.

That aside, I went to the eye1 profile and had no issues.  When I went to Win7 (RC) what Mike said reared it's head.  However, I went into through all the display/color management setup and brought the Xrite generated ICC in as default--well, sorta.  There is a module (CalibrationLoader.exe) kind of like the old Adobe Gamma loader that runs at boot.  I imagine Colorvision has a similar launch device.  We all know Microsoft is obstinate and the screen would often default back.  The solution: add the Calibration Loader to the Startup directory in the menu file.  I even keep a shortcut on the Quicklaunch bar in case Not Responding wants to bonk it.

BTW- there are a lot of tweaks already out there to let you bypass some of the MS BS.  Even upgrading directly over Win 7 RC which MS says you can't do.  It does require that you move the DVD image to a drive and modify some of the INI files.  NBD really.

I agree with Mike.  A clean install is always the best way.

But, a question for Mike; didn't you use the function to transport your settings, etc. to the new install?

My only PITA (so far) is the requirement to "unactivate" software and then re-activate it again.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 03, 2009, 11:42:51 PM


I am awfully tired of trying to find 64 bit W7 drivers...

Not defending M$ here but it's not their fault if the drivers aren't there.  OTOH, I blamed them for not having a generic 1394 driver in Vista.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 04, 2009, 12:15:31 AM
Quote
Not defending M$ here but it's not their fault if the drivers aren't there
I agree... but the fact that I NEED to find 64 bit drivers is directly related to the install of W7 64 bit.  I chose to do 64 bit. I could have stayed with my first try, 32 bit, but no, I had to have 64 bits. (I thought they were M&Ms) ::) ::)

Just some old equipment like an old HP 952C printer and an old Epson Scanner 1250 Perfection are defunct.
I still have Vista 32 running also, so they can be used mt that computer.

be good!
Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 04, 2009, 12:46:03 AM
Whoa, puckered me for a moment but the Perfection 4490 Photo has drivers.  Haven't updated that machine yet.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Keith on November 06, 2009, 12:13:00 AM
Hello Mike and contributing members,

Holy Crap! I'll be going as far as I can with Vista Ultimate. It is treating me pretty good right now, and I've got a lot of software and peripherals hooked up.

Thanks for all the information. It sure helps curb any interest in upgrading  to 7 if you don't need to.

Regards,

Keith


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 06, 2009, 02:41:16 PM
I'm slowly discovering all the dances you have to do in order to get Windows 7 to work properly.  Sometimes it's a matter of making just the right face while praying.  My latest discovery was how (finally) to get the ColorVision Spyder to work with Windows 7 so you get a working monitor calibration and profile:

(1) Right click on the desktop and select "Personalize".
(2) Click "Display".
(3) Click "Change Display Settings".
(4) Click the tiny "Advanced Settings": link in blue.
(5) Click the "Color Management" tab.
(6) Click the "Color Management" button: only button on this tab.
(7) Click the "Advanced Tab".
[8] Click "Change System Defaults".
(9) Click the "Advanced Tab".
(10) Uncheck "Use Windows Display Calibration".
(11) Close out all open dialogs.
(12) Right click on your "Spyder2Express" icon on the desktop.
(13) Select "Run As Administrator": just opening it WILL NOT WORK.
(14) Go through the process of profiling your monitor.
(15) Repeat steps (1) through (9) above, then
(16) CHECK "Use Windows Display Calibration".
(17) Click "Start", "All Programs", and open "Startup".
(18) Right click on the Colorvision Startup and delete it.

When you're done, if you want to verify things, use Explorer and
open c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color.  Make sure there is
a Spyder2Express.icm with today's date/time from your above
calibration.  If so, you know the Spyder2Express software stored
the .icm profile in the right place.  If you don't run the
Spyder2Express as administrator, the profile will not go to the
proper directory.  You may also want to go through steps (1)
through (6) above to verify that the default profile is
Spyder2Express.icm.

Yep... seems pretty straighforward, eh?   ???

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 06, 2009, 05:28:03 PM
Quote
My latest discovery was how (finally) to get the ColorVision Spyder to work with Windows 7 so you get a working monitor calibration and profile:
I assume the same convolutions are required for any other monitor calibration software  ???
I checked X-Rite and the IMatch 3 software  v3.62 is "compliant" with W7 but the ColorMunki software has "issues" and a new version is due this month.
I would have thought such software would need to be modified to do all that you have done without special user input. I can foresee people calibrating their monitors and not getting the result implemented.
Terry.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Keith on November 06, 2009, 08:06:50 PM
Wow, thanks again for all the effort Mike. I can understand you having to keep on top of all the newest upgrades, but can you suggest any reasons the average user might want to go through all this trouble?

I use several different high end printers including an HPZ3200-44", 3 monitors on my desk top, many different kinds of software besides Qimage: architecture, Microsoft Office, accounting, Photoshop.......... I can just imagine the time I would have to spend trying to deal with what you describe as a big move. At my end, I'm not a programmer or hacker. I'm happy just to be able to figure out enough of how to use the software to get my work done, and deal with the regular flush of updates!

Come to think of it, I am quite happy in my home too.

Why do this move???

All my respect goes out to you Mike! Thanks for all your efforts.

Regards,

Keith


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 06, 2009, 08:38:21 PM
Quote
My latest discovery was how (finally) to get the ColorVision Spyder to work with Windows 7 so you get a working monitor calibration and profile:
I assume the same convolutions are required for any other monitor calibration software  ???
I checked X-Rite and the IMatch 3 software  v3.62 is "compliant" with W7 but the ColorMunki software has "issues" and a new version is due this month.
I would have thought such software would need to be modified to do all that you have done without special user input. I can foresee people calibrating their monitors and not getting the result implemented.
Terry.

I can't speak for the other brands, although now that I understand what was causing the problem on my setup, I suspect they will all have trouble unless they were specifically (re)designed for W7.  I also suspect that if another brand doesn't work, my 18 step program might also fix the problem on those other brands.  The three major stumbling blocks were:

(1) If Windows Calibration was turned on and isn't turned off prior to calibration/profiling, it could interfere with the calibration/profiling.

(2) Startup "gamma loaders" no longer work because W7 is designed to reload the video LUT after tasks like returning from sleep mode, logoff/logon, etc.  To avoid conflicts with the Windows Calibration which effectively does the same thing, gamma loaders should be turned off.  Putting that check in "Windows Display Calibration" does the same thing and it knows when the LUT needs to be reloaded.

(3) If you run your monitor profiling tool without using "Run as administrator", the profile will not be saved in the proper "windows\system32\spool\drivers\color" folder where it belongs and where the system can see it.  Instead, it'll be stored in an obscure "virtualstore" folder off the "users" folder.  You have to do the "run as administrator" even if you are logged in as an administrator.  This is one of many aspects of W7 that has not improved over Vista... and you'd expect it to.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 06, 2009, 08:53:06 PM
Wow, thanks again for all the effort Mike. I can understand you having to keep on top of all the newest upgrades, but can you suggest any reasons the average user might want to go through all this trouble?

Right now I can't think of any good reason for someone to upgrade to W7 other than if you, like me, need to support some sort of customer base that might be using W7.  I've discovered only a few minor changes to W7 that I like slightly better than Vista but 90% of them are fluff that just make for interesting conversation.  Stuff like Aero Snap where you can "throw" an open window against the sides/top of the monitor to activate maximize and screen sizing, and "color hot track" where your task bar icons take on a glow that is the same color as the program icon when you roll the mouse over them are kinda cool looking but to me, totally useless as far as productivity.

I keep hoping that as I use W7 more, I'll find features that I just can't live without or that make it more productive than Vista.  It is said that W7 is more efficient and faster than Vista but if so, it's not something that a user would find obvious.  I'll let you know if I change my mind and find a hidden treasure chest somewhere.  I'd sure love that since it might justify some of the hell I've been through over the last two weeks in getting a truly usable W7 setup that works with all my software and hardware.  ;)

Final thought: keep in mind that I'm likely one of the worst case scenarios for an upgrade when it comes to W7 since I have to keep a lot of hardware and software running properly to support tens of thousands of users.  That means that I have a lot of stuff on my computer, so I'll obviously have a greater chance of running into multiple problems.  I've heard from a few other users who didn't have as much trouble, but so far, all have run into some sort of frustrating issue(s) where they needed help.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 07, 2009, 01:04:33 PM
.... If you don't run the Spyder2Express as administrator, the profile will not go to the
proper directory.  You may also want to go through steps (1) through (6) above to verify that the default profile is
Spyder2Express.icm.

Yep... seems pretty straighforward, eh?   ???

Hate to say I told you so.  BTW-what to watch out for (been there):  certain updates--and I haven't tracked it to which ones--will reset your ICM back to the WIN stuff.  I do not know why.

Maybe it's time for you to switch to Mac(!?!?!) and re-write QI.

Just kidding!! I used to be an Apple SE in a former life (short lived).  You ought to see the "inits" running in the background there eating resources.  Makes me laugh at the Mac/PC ads where Mac is trouble free.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Peter_Corser on November 07, 2009, 01:49:36 PM
Mike

You seem to have had real problems.  I did a dual boot with W7 Professional 64 bit (pre-ordered on the special offers made in the UK when it looked as if we were going to get E versions) retaining Vista on my "main" PC which was well screwed in Vista (e.g. I couldn't install anything new on USB and MS forums only suggestion was to reinstall Vista from scratch), but still has some bits I want to access.  This PC was a home brew with an OEM Vista licence from the start and has always been troublesome.

After the hassles of moving to Vista I made sure that 64 bit drivers were available for all my hardware - Vista had everything except for my old Epson 3170 scanner, but Epson has that available.  I have not had any real hassles - everything seemed to work straight out of the box (so far, anyway!).  Experience suggests that things may well go downhill from now on!!

I do have a Spyder2Express and that worked since I have been indoctrinated in Vista to run almost everything as administrator if you mant it to work at all well (on this PC anyway!)

I haven't tried anything too clever yet, but basic printing appears ok (W7 drivers for my HP8750 printer seem to work ok - no drivers for the card slots, but I've never used those).

I even made Live Mail work straight off without really thinking about it (although I have to admit that I use another PC, still running Vista, for email), but I do think that Thunderbird is better.

Trying to shrink the existing Vista partition is another matter - I have finally managed that with a lot of effort and tinkering using Paragon Partition Magic 10 (MS own tools seem to preclude moving the files Vista has put at the end of the partition which are the limiting factor and protected by the Volume Shadow Service)

I guess I have just been lucky, so far!!!!!


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 07, 2009, 03:17:02 PM
Xrite/GMBh has updated the software for Win 7, 32 and 64-bit.  You do not need "32 & 64-Bit Drivers for Win2000, XP, and Vista."   Just download the new iMatch update: http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1014&Action=support&SoftwareID=724 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1014&Action=support&SoftwareID=724) which includes both drivers.  It is later than the Aug. 09 release which did not have the drivers embedded.  This is v.3.6.2(Win 7)

This is for the iOne equipment.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 07, 2009, 03:28:56 PM
Quote
Xrite/GMBh has updated the software for Win 7, 32 and 64-bit.
This must be very recent or I missed it when I checked the other day for IMatch 3 updates. I use an Eye One 2 Display, but hasten to add I'm not using W7.
I said in reply #13
Quote
I would have thought such software would need to be modified to do all that you have done without special user input. I can foresee people calibrating their monitors and not getting the result implemented.
I wonder if IMatch3 (W7) takes care of Mike's 18 step process for you? Let us know!
Terry.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 07, 2009, 06:13:59 PM
I wonder if IMatch3 (W7) takes care of Mike's 18 step process for you? Let us know!

As you can see in my reply#7, I basically went through that two months ago.  I don't recall it being quite as involved, but it was not straight forward.  M$ started with their new color mgmt. system in Vista, so I had learned sme of it there.

BTW- The X-rite release date on the WIN 7 was just four days ago, Nov. 3, I believe.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on November 08, 2009, 08:25:37 AM
Mike

Is it OK for me to pass on your comments to our local club members?

I would give you full credit and links to your Qimage etc.  They are brain washed to PhotoShop and nothing else so doubt they would give Qimage a seconds thought.  A lot of them do not even believe in calibrating their monitors.

Jeff


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 08, 2009, 12:28:53 PM
Quote
They are brain washed to PhotoShop and nothing else so doubt they would give Qimage a seconds thought.

Jeff! I would love to buy you a steak dinner.!!

I have dealing with that issue everytime I did a Qimage demo for almost 10 years.

Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 08, 2009, 02:07:47 PM
Mike

Is it OK for me to pass on your comments to our local club members?

I would give you full credit and links to your Qimage etc.  They are brain washed to PhotoShop and nothing else so doubt they would give Qimage a seconds thought.  A lot of them do not even believe in calibrating their monitors.

Jeff

Sure!  Please pass the word.  I'd like to get word out that we talk about relevant issues and have some good discussions here.  We have a lot of Qimage, Profile Prism, and FlashPipe users here but it'd be nice to bring in people who just want to talk about stuff too and don't necessarily want to buy (my) software.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on November 08, 2009, 04:11:16 PM
Fred

Medium 16oz Please

Jeff


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: rtburgess1 on November 11, 2009, 08:50:22 PM
You just saved me a lot of trouble. Thanks Mike!


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 11, 2009, 10:11:08 PM
Well, before this starts to be a complete Windows 7 bash thread, I can report that a clean update from Windows Vista Home Premium to Windows 7 Home Premium about two weeks ago, went without any problems. Even old hardware, such as an old HP scanner worked without problems.

Of course, I had to reinstall my software, but that was done in half a day.

- Lightroom 2.5 and 3 beta
- DxO Optics Pro 5.3.5 and 6
- LightZone 3.8
- Photoshop CS3
- Qimage
- Faststone Image Viewer
- Wings Platinum 4
- Spyder Elite and Print
- Epson printer drivers for Stylus Pro 3800 and EPL-6200 Acculaser.

just to name the imaging related software.

Plus some office stuff, media players, browsers, and e-mail clients.

Although the new OS does not have a lot of new features that would warrant an update, the nearly 3 year old system (Intel Core Duo E6600, 2GB RAM, nVidia Geforce 8800 GTS 640 MB) feels significantly more responsive, faster, and stable. Whether this is due to the clean reinstall or the OS itself, I cannot say, but definitely the update was worth the price (85 ) and effort. So, I see no point of not encouraging people to do the update.

So far it was the cleanest Windows update I had.

Of course, it is very good that Mike reported about *his* problems, but for people with average configurations, I do not see inevitable hassles.

Kind regards

Thomas


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 11, 2009, 10:40:57 PM
Thomas,
Quote
I can report that a clean update from Windows Vista Home Premium to Windows 7 Home Premium about two weeks ago
Was it 32 or 64 bit?
Terry


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 12, 2009, 11:46:55 PM
Thomas,
Quote
I can report that a clean update from Windows Vista Home Premium to Windows 7 Home Premium about two weeks ago
Was it 32 or 64 bit?
Terry

32-bit. I forgot to mention it, sorry. With 64-bit the situation might be not as clear.

Kind regards

Thomas


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 13, 2009, 03:22:04 PM

I would give you full credit and links to your Qimage etc.  They are brain washed to PhotoShop and nothing else so doubt they would give Qimage a seconds thought.  A lot of them do not even believe in calibrating their monitors.

Way back hen I first started using QI, I remember Mike saying over and over that QI is a print prIogram.  I love the fact that I can final tweak without going back to other software.  BUT, QI neither does things PS can/does do nor is it designed as a full photo editor.

Having said that, Fred, your clubbers are not using Photoshop well if they won't profile a monitor!  They may as well drop back to Irfanview or Epson Color Factory, do auto enhance, and print.  ;D  ::)  ::)


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 13, 2009, 04:52:56 PM
This is off subject now but ...
Quote
Having said that, Fred, your clubbers are not using Photoshop well if they won't profile a monitor!
Seth, cough ..... not Fred's clubbers, but Jeff's. Having looked at the (nice) website of Jeff's club, I'm surprised about the attitude to colour management. Even at my little club, a recent talk  and demo on the subject went down well with several members were asking about purchase of Eye One 2 Display devices and even new monitors.
Quote
QI neither does things PS can/does do nor is it designed as a full photo editor.
The problem with PS is the price and the much cheaper Elements version does not even have a curves feature I am told.
I have just purchased Paint Shop Pro X2 Ultimate for 49. It seems to do much of what full PS can do (I stand to be corrected on that) including raw conversion, although I will continue to use Qimage raw. Also, from various trials, I would say that PS-Pro does some things better or has an easier to use interface.
Terry


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on November 14, 2009, 09:07:53 AM
Terry

We will have to move this to a new thread or we will be in trouble with Mike - do not want to upset him, he is too valuable a resource.


But in the mean time, regarding Elements 7, there is a very good curves plug in on  - http://free.pages.at/easyfilter/curves.html - it even has L A B which I find handy for adjusting the rather flat image resulting from hdr's.  I run them through Photomatix tone mapped to default and then addjust with the L A B lightness curve.

jeff


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on November 14, 2009, 02:27:52 PM
Oops, my bad!  Yes, I meant to Jeff. 

BTW, Fred and Terry, when I say PS I am really being generic.  PSP and several other programs do much, if not all, of what photoshop does.  Believe me, if it weren't for the Blemish, History Brush and a couple of others, I'd be off PS and its memory use.  (Getting a (http://SUBSTANTIA) discount for the next two years helps a lot!  ;D)


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 14, 2009, 03:03:52 PM
32-bit. I forgot to mention it, sorry. With 64-bit the situation might be not as clear.

Kind regards

Thomas

From what I understand, the 32 bit version is easier on the soul, but as to whether or not you'll have trouble with Win7, it's basically a shot in the dark.  Also, most people who are buying computers now are looking to go 64 bit so it isn't like the 64 bit version is some obscure version.  If you happen to have one of the many applications (or hardware) that Win7 doesn't like, it could be a nightmare.  If not, you may be good to go.  Right now, it's just too new to predict whether or not you'll have trouble.  After a few weeks messing with it, I've actually found more problems now (in my 64 bit Win7 Home Premium) that I didn't know about at the time of the article:

(1) Windows Media Player 12 and some other aspects of Win7 (like search indexing and thumbnail building) interfere with file creation and update operations just like poorly written anti-virus software would.  Software that performs operations like saving a file and then immediately thereafter performs an operation on that file like setting the file date/time will fail because as soon as the file is saved, Win7 starts messing with it, opening it in share exclusive mode.  Software that uses temporary files, cache files, etc. can have problems and I've seen it happen in a few programs: you get a "file is in use by another process" error.  Doesn't happen on any previous Windows platform including Windows Vista 64 bit.

(2) During the course of a day as you use your computer, multiple instances of "Explorer" will start running and not exit.  After a day or two running without a reboot, you can start Task Manager and find a half dozen instances of "Explorer.exe" on the list.  This is Explorer, not iExplore.exe: has nothing to do with Internet Explorer, and there's no indication as to why they appear.  The fix is to "End Task" on all instances and then use "Run" from Task Manager and run "explorer.exe".

(3) When downloading very large files like the ISO files for some installations of the Microsoft site (files on the order of 1.5 GB and up), all browsers including IE8 will download the file to 99% and then when the file is done, Win7 performs some sort of file check or something that takes up to several minutes to complete.  The file is actually 100% downloaded but there is a long delay in saving it.  That delay causes the browser (have tried FireFox and IE8) to think that the connection to the server was lost and the file download fails.  Has happened many times on many large downloads.  I've disabled all anti-malware software and even disabled Windows Defender and ran the browser in "Run as administrator" mode.  Nothing helps.  It's like Win7 has an extra layer of "file fondling" that you can neither see nor turn off!  As with the others above, no issues with Windows Vista 64.  I can walk over to my Vista 64 machine and download the same file at the same time and it downloads fine.

Keep in mind this is with a clean install of Win7 64 on a relatively new (year old) quad core computer.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: teppy on November 17, 2009, 03:00:47 PM
OK, so without reading this entire thread to see if its better yet(windows 7), i'm going to throw this out- come on over to the dark side-go MAC. i took the jump a year ago now.  ;)

Hi mike, its been awhile, and i know that this has been discussed and beat to death a thousand and one times over the years. I'm really picking at you, but in a way sure would love to see it happen.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 17, 2009, 06:52:56 PM
Do you really believe that MAC does not have serious problems either? To me the big problems with Snow Leopard, color management, and Epson printer drivers aren't a good advertisement for the MAC either.

Kind regards

Thomas


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Cadencia on November 19, 2009, 11:18:59 PM
Just thought I would add a comment here.  I too, like Mike, have had every flavour of Windows (and OS2 - remember that?) and upgraded and reinstalled and collected.  Like Mike, I have software for ever, collected and nurtured and upgraded.  I have been a programmer since 1962!!!, and I HATE upgrading for no good reason.

So, because I have to support, I upgraded from Vista Ultimate 64 to Win7 Ultimate 64.  Took an afternoon, with only minor hitches.  Xrite I1 works fine.  I had to reinstall the Canon EOS utility, and I should have de-activated CS4 before upgrading, but a phone call fixed that.  Capture one the same.  My monitors - also 1920 x 1200 all worked as expected.  I have all the stupid eye candy turned off - timewasters.  But really, a pleasant upgrade experience.  Oh, and I have upwards of 80 programs of various kinds installed - no problems so far.

And whilst I'm typing - A few weeks ago I changed my system disk from Velociraptors in RAID 0 to a single Solid state disk.  Fantastic!  System is MUCH more responsive.  Worth every cent.

Thanks for listening.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Klaus Ressmann on November 20, 2009, 06:11:41 PM
Reading all this Win7 issues I am glad to use my MAC except for using Qimage via VM ware fusion and win XP

Is there really no way to persuade Mike to have Qimage also written for Mac OS?
I would be ready to buy a new version for Mac OS
What do other users of Qimage and MAC think about
Thanks for considering this idea

Klaus


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 20, 2009, 09:09:56 PM
Is there really no way to persuade Mike to have Qimage also written for Mac OS?
I would be ready to buy a new version for Mac OS

Yeah, you and the ~200 other people who want Qimage on the Mac!  If you could get all 200 together and each pay $1500 in advance for me to take the 1-2 years to develop it and put everything else on hold, you might get my attention.  There was a petition a few years ago to get Qimage on the Mac.  It was distributed to every online forum available so that people could sign this petition.  It is still open today, 3 years later, and has gathered less than 250 signatures.  That gives you an indication of how many Qimage users are really switching to a Mac, and even gives you a feel for how many Mac users there are out there.  Not many!  I would never see any real return on that investment and would go bankrupt trying.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 20, 2009, 10:16:57 PM
Reading all this Win7 issues I am glad to use my MAC except for using Qimage via VM ware fusion and win XP

Is there really no way to persuade Mike to have Qimage also written for Mac OS?
I would be ready to buy a new version for Mac OS
What do other users of Qimage and MAC think about
Thanks for considering this idea

Klaus

You should also bear in mind, that the majority of Windows 7 upgraders (including me!) do not have any problems so far (or at least no significant problems). Those happy users will not post anywhere about their happiness, only the problem-driven cases usually become public. Mike describes in his article a bad example for sure, but as he stated his setup is not usual.

So, there are issues with Win 7 as they are with MacOS. Are they likely to apply to you? Probably not.

Given the current state of MacOS Snow Leopard with color management and Epson printer drivers, I would say that MacOS is even more problematic for photographers than Win 7, but I am sure that the issue will be solved soon.

So the choice between MacOS and Win 7 is likely more a question of personal taste and budget than an issue of overall stability.

Kind regards

Thomas



Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 22, 2009, 01:20:07 AM
Quote
You should also bear in mind, that the majority of Windows 7 upgraders (including me!) do not have any problems so far (or at least no significant problems).

Getting a feel for how Windows 7 is really doing requires research: things like what OS and software you are using now, whether you are going to do an update or a clean install, and whether you are using 32 or 64 bit all factor into the equation.  We're still early in the transition but I have found some common issues that are fairly significant and have been corroborated via other users.  The two main ones are:

(1) Windows 7's folder/file security is EXTREMELY non user friendly and buggy.  Doing something as simple as restoring a folder of files can cause some or all of the files in the folder to not be readable, even if you have admin privileges.  Using the Windows "Properties" function, you'll find that if you select one file at a time, you can get to the "Security" tab where you'll need to delete all user access and add back the ones you want and take ownership of the file to correct this problem, but if you select more than one file, the "Security" tab is often missing, forcing you to do this one file at a time.  Worse, this seems random, where multiple files of the same type and same (current) privileges will cause the "Security" tab to disappear, while other multiple selections do work.  It's an absolute mess.  Setting security at the folder level says it works, but it doesn't: it randomly leaves out certain files in the folder and doesn't change them.  You can end up with a folder that you own, with simple files like JPG images or text files, and some of them won't open even if you open an explorer window in "Run as Administrator" mode.  I actually had to make a command line batch file to fix the problem.

(2) The longer you run your machine, the more instances of "Explorer.exe" will be running in task manager.  I've found as many as eight copies open, each using about 15 MB of memory or so.  Only one is the "correct one" that shows you your desktop.  The rest are W7 memory leaks!  Update: I actually located the problem with this one.  If you create an Explorer shortcut on your desktop using any of the Explorer startup switches, you get a new Explorer process each time you click on that icon... and they all hang around and never close even after you close the window.  As an example, just create a new shortcut using "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe /e,/select,c:".  Now each time you click on the icon you get a new Explorer.exe process that won't go away unless you kill it in Task Manager.  If the shortcut is just "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe" without the switches, it works OK.  Again this is with W7 64 bit.  Doing the same thing on Vista 64 bit leads to no problem: you do get an extra "Explorer.exe" process each time you open but they go away as soon as you close the Explorer window.  Just one of a number of W7 bugs that make even the most basic of OS operations painful.  W7 just was not ready for prime time: as of this writing, it still isn't!

As I said, a lot of factors contribute so you may or may not see these problems, but they are common.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 22, 2009, 01:07:44 PM
Mike,

You are right with your comments, but I am sure that most of the users would not come in touch with the problems you describe. Regarding the explorer.exe issues in Win 7 32-bit they don't stay as orphan processes, they just don't disappear in Task Manager immediately after closing the window.

Certainly Windows 7 has still bugs, which some user may come across or not. But some posters here express their reluctance of using Windows 7 because of the bad experience others had with certain cases, and others claim the superiority of Mac, because such bugs do not exist there and MacOS is much more stable.

In my opinion, this is wrong, as the current printing issues with MacOS show (these issues affect photographers much more directly than the problems you describe as a developer) that a new MacOS version does have its own problems. When my machine was not running stable on Vista, I considered to switch to MacOS. Finally, I did not, went the Windows 7 route, and am now happy that I did not switch - it saved a lot of money, still using the same equipment.

Everybody, who considers to switch to Windows 7 should check if

1) the hardware vendor already supports Windows 7 with drivers (if not, there is a risk that the hardware may not work, but it might work even so, as it was the case with my old HP scanner)
2) there is any piece of software, which a user considers essential for his work, is not supported yet. If there is one, wait with the switch (although, for my case, which is the usual stuff of office, home banking, imaging, and utility software, I did not find any essential software, which was not yet supported)
3) For non essential software, just dump it or give it a try after switching to Win 7
4) Do a clean install, because after some years of use, your machine will have a lot of "abandonware" on it.

I reiterate, that for the average user, I see no reason why Windows 7 32 bit was not ready for prime time.

Kind regards

Thomas


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 22, 2009, 01:33:24 PM
Thomas,
Quote
I reiterate, that for the average user, I see no reason why Windows 7 32 bit was not ready for prime time.
The "average" user will soon be a 64 bit user now that the likes of Dell are putting it onto their machines as the standard offering and such users will not have a clue what is going on :o
Terry.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 22, 2009, 03:05:29 PM
Regarding the explorer.exe issues in Win 7 32-bit they don't stay as orphan processes, they just don't disappear in Task Manager immediately after closing the window.

They absolutely do stay as orphan processes, they eat memory, and they never disappear unless you kill them!

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Adam on November 22, 2009, 03:10:27 PM
I think one would be allowed a few mistakes in such a large project as ANY Windows version. Where would we be without Windows and Microsoft? We must remember that they are expected to work correctly with 1000s version of software.
In dark ages?


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on November 22, 2009, 03:39:59 PM
Yes that is true going back to the early eighties, when IBM decided to use MSdos as their PC DOS.  This stamped a standard on pc's.

But, what is happening now is continuous 'updates' and complications just to keep the revenue rolling in.  I think we more or less reached the top with XP and are now paying quite excessive prices for what are service packs and fancy fiddling with the presentation.  If they sold the updates as service packs at a reasonable charge, that would be a different manner.  Adobe are in the same business! Umpteen versions/updates of Elements all for the sake of it, sorry, to keep revenue up.

Now Qimage, that is a different matter, small 'flaw/bug' discovered immediately put right all covered in original cost.

Come to think of it if there was a version of Qimage for Linux I would be there in a shot.

Jeff

     


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 22, 2009, 04:33:06 PM
I think one would be allowed a few mistakes in such a large project as ANY Windows version. Where would we be without Windows and Microsoft? We must remember that they are expected to work correctly with 1000s version of software.
In dark ages?

But what happened to their year's worth of testing and release candidates before the public release?  I found these problems, one in minutes, and another in a few days of use.  MS shoots themselves in the foot because they always put out "orphan" products with their beta programs: release candidates that give you no path to convert/upgrade to the final version.  This means that you basically have to rebuild your machine TWICE: once for the RC's and again when the final version comes out.  This preempts people like me who are busy and don't have "spare" machines to dedicate to MS for testing and that really cuts down on their beta base.   

I think we more or less reached the top with XP and are now paying quite excessive prices for what are service packs and fancy fiddling with the presentation.  If they sold the updates as service packs at a reasonable charge, that would be a different manner.

Interesting thought and I pretty much agree.  I've always seen Vista (and now W7) as XP with some extra fluff: some of which is good for security/protection and others of which are just intrusive and/or don't work.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: tgutgu on November 22, 2009, 06:40:30 PM
Regarding the explorer.exe issues in Win 7 32-bit they don't stay as orphan processes, they just don't disappear in Task Manager immediately after closing the window.

They absolutely do stay as orphan processes, they eat memory, and they never disappear unless you kill them!

Mike

Hmm

On my Win 7 32-bit system they disappear, after closing the window. So it is possibly a 64-bit issue (?)

Kind regards

Thomas


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Adam on November 22, 2009, 08:16:51 PM
On my 32-bit win7 they close also.

I still say this: windows runs on millions of computers that are configured differently software and hardware wise and I think it is an accomplishment in it self. Otherwise, I think everybody would run Linux of some flavor or Apple, but it is not happening.
Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.
In my case, I used Windows from 95 to win7 now (and other MS applications) and can see a huge progress. Anybody here old enough to remember WordPerfect, Lotus Wordstar and a likes. All are gone now, but MS is here to stay.
What can I say? I love windows!


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 22, 2009, 08:29:53 PM
Quote
some flavor or Apple

Crab Apple?


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: rayw on November 22, 2009, 09:03:16 PM
It depends what is meant by progress. I have an old cpm machine - Kaypro. I could probably plug that in, shove in the floppy disc, write a short letter, print it, and pack it up in the time it takes for windows to boot up from cold. I see no reason why anyone would need to rush into W7. It is obvious that there will be problems to start with. If they want me to test their product, they can pay me for my time. ;D

Windows installed on most machines? For years M$ have tied in with the machine makers, supplying cheaper oem copies, and recently they have been actively trying to suppress alternative OS's being installed. They are well known for bullying tactics. The open architecture of the PC was due to IBM, there is plenty of information of how the history evolved, how by luck Bill Gates got a toe hold in the business.

The popularity of software, and much else these days, is due to marketing, not necessarily quality of product. It pays them to release damaged versions.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 22, 2009, 09:11:06 PM
On my 32-bit win7 they close also.

I still say this: windows runs on millions of computers that are configured differently software and hardware wise and I think it is an accomplishment in it self. Otherwise, I think everybody would run Linux of some flavor or Apple, but it is not happening.
Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.
In my case, I used Windows from 95 to win7 now (and other MS applications) and can see a huge progress. Anybody here old enough to remember WordPerfect, Lotus Wordstar and a likes. All are gone now, but MS is here to stay.
What can I say? I love windows!


I have to take a somewhat reversed position.
True Windows has been "king" to millions upon millions, and they have all kinds of siftware running in it.
But that's really backwards. The people that write the software have developer packages and various languages designed to be compiled in Windows. So The software industry is really configuring its software to run in Windows. Not the other way.
That's why Mike is pointing out the irritating aspects of running/writing software as he tries to conform to W7 and finds bugs that impede the completion of the job.

The next item on which I disagree, is the driver issue and the "Runs in W 7" issue.
If your software requires a driver, like a printer, scanner, audio, video, you have years of warning along with the schematic setups so you can develop your W 7 drivers, 32 or 64 bit. If your software is hard wired and need updating to run in a larger operating system, you too have a package from MS that you buy which shows you the requirements to run in W7.
Sure, I was annoyed that my scanner (old one) didn't have an updated driver.... and I blamed W7. Reality says, Epson didn't want to waste time and manpower on a new driver for my old scanner.

As for Mike not writing for a Mac or Linux, it is a sensible business decision. It has little do do with how 'sweet or sour' the Mac may be. Just that there are not enough people willing to pay enough money to work for a year and never break even.
Simple as that.

Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Fred A on November 23, 2009, 11:23:08 AM
Quote
Sure, I was annoyed that my scanner (old one) didn't have an updated driver.... and I blamed W7. Reality says, Epson didn't want to waste time and manpower on a new driver for my old scanner.

Never though I would quote myself :)

I bit the bullet and got Vuescan to run my "old" Epson scanner that would not run in Windows 7, 64 bit.
Not only did it recognize my old scanner, but it resurrected it to produce top flight scans.

So things are looking up!!
Fred


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 23, 2009, 03:34:30 PM
Even Mike, doesn't want to release his software for other platforms.

Has nothing to do with "want".  Give me 1000 programmers, a basket full of billions in cash, and a beta tester base in the millions and I guarantee I could produce software that knows how to end its own tasks.  :D  And I would write Qimage for every OS out there, including the iPhone.

On my Win 7 32-bit system they disappear, after closing the window. So it is possibly a 64-bit issue (?)

I believe that is the case.  In fact, some 64 bit W7 machines don't even have the problem so I believe it is configuration/hardware dependent as well.

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: TCollier on November 26, 2009, 04:25:28 PM
Quote
You should also bear in mind, that the majority of Windows 7 upgraders (including me!) do not have any problems so far (or at least no significant problems).

Getting a feel for how Windows 7 is really doing requires research: things like what OS and software you are using now, whether you are going to do an update or a clean install, and whether you are using 32 or 64 bit all factor into the equation.  We're still early in the transition but I have found some common issues that are fairly significant and have been corroborated via other users.  The two main ones are:

(1) Windows 7's folder/file security is EXTREMELY non user friendly and buggy.  Doing something as simple as restoring a folder of files can cause some or all of the files in the folder to not be readable, even if you have admin privileges.  Using the Windows "Properties" function, you'll find that if you select one file at a time, you can get to the "Security" tab where you'll need to delete all user access and add back the ones you want and take ownership of the file to correct this problem, but if you select more than one file, the "Security" tab is often missing, forcing you to do this one file at a time.  Worse, this seems random, where multiple files of the same type and same (current) privileges will cause the "Security" tab to disappear, while other multiple selections do work.  It's an absolute mess.  Setting security at the folder level says it works, but it doesn't: it randomly leaves out certain files in the folder and doesn't change them.  You can end up with a folder that you own, with simple files like JPG images or text files, and some of them won't open even if you open an explorer window in "Run as Administrator" mode.  I actually had to make a command line batch file to fix the problem.

(2) The longer you run your machine, the more instances of "Explorer.exe" will be running in task manager.  I've found as many as eight copies open, each using about 15 MB of memory or so.  Only one is the "correct one" that shows you your desktop.  The rest are W7 memory leaks!  Update: I actually located the problem with this one.  If you create an Explorer shortcut on your desktop using any of the Explorer startup switches, you get a new Explorer process each time you click on that icon... and they all hang around and never close even after you close the window.  As an example, just create a new shortcut using "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe /e,/select,c:".  Now each time you click on the icon you get a new Explorer.exe process that won't go away unless you kill it in Task Manager.  If the shortcut is just "%SystemRoot%\explorer.exe" without the switches, it works OK.  Again this is with W7 64 bit.  Doing the same thing on Vista 64 bit leads to no problem: you do get an extra "Explorer.exe" process each time you open but they go away as soon as you close the Explorer window.  Just one of a number of W7 bugs that make even the most basic of OS operations painful.  W7 just was not ready for prime time: as of this writing, it still isn't!

As I said, a lot of factors contribute so you may or may not see these problems, but they are common.

Mike
Mike, I agree with you.  I have been 'installing' for a week now.  Sometimes W7 seems to be real solid, and then I'll have several instances of Windows Explorer go TU on me, i.e. Not responding.  Very frustrating, as this happens with very little going on, and can be very difficult to kill off.  And the security crap is a total nightmare!  After installing CS3, in XPVM, I couldn't print to my iPF6100!  All this just to get flashy buttons and transparent windows?  If I had known, I'd still be running XP w/o many issues at all.  BEWARE!


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: gpeffer on November 27, 2009, 10:32:13 PM
I upgraded from Vista 64  Home Premium to Windows 7 (upgrade kit) and everything works fine. I use Huey Pro 64 and so far all is well. So far.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: admin on November 28, 2009, 07:33:04 PM
I upgraded from Vista 64  Home Premium to Windows 7 (upgrade kit) and everything works fine. I use Huey Pro 64 and so far all is well. So far.

Give it time and have faith.  You will have problems!  :D  I'm having more and more problems as time progresses, mainly more and more applications that W7 steps on while they are trying to save their own files.  I've got at least a half dozen programs that have caused the "file is in use by another process" error and I know it is coming from W7 immediately trying to open and fiddle with new files as soon as they are created.  And I'm still trying to find a way to get around the access problems where you can't even access files when you're an admin, you own the files, and they are in a folder where you have full access rights.  MS really screwed up file access and security in W7!

Mike


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Jeff on November 29, 2009, 08:22:46 AM
A little off topic.

A few years ago I had a conducted tour of a AWAC at Waddington.  They showed us their computer system etc. and a question was asked - do you get any trouble with viruses? - No, we have no connection to the internet so not a problem, but, next computer system update with be running Windows, we will have to take precautions then.  I found that frightening, putting defense systems in the hands of foreign  - to us in the UK - system writers did not seem a good idea.

Also about the same time, a trip round Corus steel works control room, there was Windows controlling the enormous pots of metal!!!

jeff


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: rayw on November 29, 2009, 11:43:36 AM
Hi Jeff,

Properly engineered software can run quite well under a windows os, particularly if that is the only software running on the system, and a complete integrated system has been engineered, hardware and software. In the cases you mentioned, there would be many reasons why a Windows operating system would be the correct choice to make, some based on engineering, some based on politics. The user interface - the pictures you would have seen on the control panels - would be comparatively easy to implement at the time of your visit.  Standard safety critical features would hopefully being put in. The problem envisaged with the AWC situation is the connection to the internet - not windows, per se. However, it is difficult, bearing in mind the versions of windows and the software we see as the general public, to have much confidence in the choice made.

The situation is not the same as the mass marketing of software for general use that we are familiar with, which tries to allow for every combination of whatever device a user will want to add on to it, and badly written software written by unknown third parties.

As a matter of interest, many more 'real time' software projects are being ported to windows, due to the simplicity in adding on various bits of hardware, and the user interface.  Video editing,machine tool control, navigation systems being just a few.

Best wishes,

Ray


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Terry-M on November 29, 2009, 03:15:50 PM
Quote
here was Windows controlling the enormous pots of metal!!!
No worries  ::)
A branch of my old company probably did all the engineering for that project  ;)
Terry.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Owen Glendower on December 15, 2009, 01:31:27 AM
Quote
Quote from: Klaus Ressmann on November 20, 2009, 01:11:41 PM
Is there really no way to persuade Mike to have Qimage also written for Mac OS?
I would be ready to buy a new version for Mac OS

Yeah, you and the ~200 other people who want Qimage on the Mac!  If you could get all 200 together and each pay $1500 in advance for me to take the 1-2 years to develop it and put everything else on hold, you might get my attention.  There was a petition a few years ago to get Qimage on the Mac.  It was distributed to every online forum available so that people could sign this petition.  It is still open today, 3 years later, and has gathered less than 250 signatures.  That gives you an indication of how many Qimage users are really switching to a Mac, and even gives you a feel for how many Mac users there are out there.  Not many!  I would never see any real return on that investment and would go bankrupt trying.

Mike

Here's the solution for the Mac users:  Go to Wal-Mart.  Buy the $300 Toshiba Windows 7 laptop they have currently on special.  (I did.)  Install Qimage.  Print stuff.


Title: Re: November 2009: Win7 - Microsoft's Defiant Child
Post by: Seth on February 25, 2010, 05:15:17 PM
Mike-

I am getting ready to do the REAL full install.  I have a question about the whole admin thing.

Vista (or maybe Toshiba) created some bogus Administrator with a password you could not change.  Or, so they thought.  I used a Unix boot disk with a utility that let you delete/change/create one with new password and all fell into place.

Is WIN 7 doing this same Kabuki dance?? ???