Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Nedd your help.
Just received U2410 monitor and it is calibrated at the factory as you can see from attached image. Also, Dell says that it cannot reproduce calibration data just in case.
Should I attempt to calibrate it with EZColor and OptixXR? I think that they used better equipment to calibrate it, than what I have. Affraid to mess up, even though I calibrated my Sony and CRT's before.
Advise please. Maybe Mike can say something here.
Thank you!

Adam, you should calibrate your monitor with the pc (graphics card) it is used with. Values are stored in the card's look-up-table (LUT) which set things every time the computer is booted up.
I see that Dell say on their calibration the average deltaE is < 5. Well, 5 is not very good; even with a cheap monitor I achieved < 3 with my own calibration. I get < 1 with my Eizo monitor. I was told by Gretag Mcbeth that <3.5 is satisfactory.
I'm sure you'll get good results with your kit  ;D
Terry.

I just calibrated my monitor. Could you please look at this attachment and tell me if I obtained good results according to this.
Also could you please tell me what it all means.
Thank you!

Adam,
The luminance values do not look right to me. For an LCD monitor the "normal" white luminance is 120cd/m2, in other words your screen is too bright.
I would have expected a lower value for black luminance too but that may be affected by the the high brightness setting.
For comparison, see the attached results from my Eye One 2 Display calibration.
It's not uncommon for the factory settings to be very bright, however I'd tend to leave the contrast setting alone; my monitor is set at 50% contrast and I leave it there.

I'm not familiar with the EZ Color software but you should be able to set you White luminance in the calibration process, maybe it's the in "advanced" mode.
Hopefully there is someone else on the forum with the same device and software who can help.
Terry.

I'm a little confused calibrating this monitor. It has RGB and Adobe color choices. In addition under custom color tab it has GAIN, SATURATION, HUE and OFFSET. Which of those should I use calibrating? Also, how does room lightning affect brightness? Never had such a problem before.

You need to read the manual, assuming you got one with the monitor; it may be on a CD that came with it, if not you can download it here:
http://support.ap.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/U2410W/en/index.htm
It's an html document, unzip & copy contents to a folder and then double click the index.htm file.
I had a quick glance, RGB is something to do with how it's connected DVI or analogue I think. I assume Adobe color is a preset for the colour space rather than using an actual profile made by calibration.
You really need to read this and get familiar with the calibration software and the section that allows you to set brightness (luminance).
The gain controls (if it's like mine) allow you to set RGB individually and set the colour temperature (6500K say). This is not essential because if specified at the start of calibration, it should be set by the graphics card LUT values. Doing it manually just means there's less adjustment for the Graphics card to do.
SATURATION, HUE and OFFSET I would leave alone.
Your main problem is to get that brightness to a sensible level.
I found a review of the software here:
http://www.camerahobby.com/Digital_MonacoEZ_Color_OptixXR.htm
You can see that one of the early screens in the process asks if you want to "calibrate & profile" or just "profile". You need to choose the former which will allow you to adjust the brightness in the process.
I hope that gets you a little further in your set up & calibration  ;D
Terry.
Edit
While calibrating, as long as there is no strong light falling on the screen, all should be well.
As far as viewing, the brighter the ambient light the brighter the screen needs to be and visa-versa. Some screens have a sensor that adjusts the brightness automatically, when that is the case, the feature should be turned off during calibration.
T

I talk to X-rite tech support and after that I re-calibrated.
So far I got to 139 cd/m, if I get to 120 my monitor will be very dim, brightness at maybe 20%. How does contrast affect brightness in this equation? I guess I will have to find another way than adjusting brightness itself to reduce "brightness". I was told by tech support that Dell monitors are in general very bright.
Overall, I'm happy with my monitor though.
Thank you for taking your time to help me!
P.S.
I also ask tech support that maybe I should trade in my Optix-XR for better unit and he said that in all honesty I'll be wasting my money, Optix is an excellent colorimeter.

But did you "calibrate & profile" or just "profile"? If the former what did you set as the target value for white luminance?
The brightness % setting is not a measure of the "brightness"; 139cd/m2 is, which a is little on high side. At least 139 is much better than the original 327  :D.
I suspect that the gain values are set too high on your monitor; if they were a little lower, you would get 120cd/m2 with a reasonable brightness setting %. However 20% still leaves plenty of margin to turn it down.

You are likely to get dark prints compared to what an image looks like on screen; you then will need to turn the brightness down to match your prints - and then re-print. I like to work with the numbers during calibartion, it's more consistent than working by eye.  ;)

What was your resulting Black luminance? 0.2cd/m2 or less would indicate good contrast I think. My old cheap monitor gave 0.2, my new Eizo gives 0.1 for comparison.
That applies to the factory settings of many monitors, that is why they need full calibration for photographic work IMHO.  ::)
Terry.

After so many tries I got this result now. Should I be happy now?
Thank you again for all your help.

I think so  ;D
When I first started calibrating monitors, it took some time for me to get the hang of it wrt getting the brightness setting right. When I had a new monitor a few months ago, I still had to try different settings to get the optimum result.
LCD monitors are normally quite stable but I suggest you calibrate on a regular basis. I have been told (by a colour management specialist) that the back light takes a few hours of use to "burn in" so another calibration after the first few weeks of use would be a good thing to do.
Enjoy your new screen, you'll see your photos in a new light  ;D
Terry.

GROAN!    That was terrible!
Fred  ::) ::) ::)

GROAN!    That was terrible!
Fred  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I don't get it what was terrible?

When you've been on this forum for a little longer you'll get used to Fred's sense of humour   ???
He was referring to my little pun:
  ::)
Terry.

I'm facing the same problems with the same monitor (but using Spyder3 to calibrate)... how did you finally set the settings (color space, brightness, contrast, others) to achive the goal?

Is yours attached to a desktop or a laptop?

Mine is attached to desktop.
Basically, play with brightness (about 30%), contrast (about 50%) and then gain to control 3 color (RGB).
However, I have another question.
What is the ideal luminance to strive for and how close a range to 6500K can (should) you get during calibration on the best monitor?

Your calibration software "should" enable you to set target values but I would leave contrast alone at the monitor's native value.
You don't normally set the "color space" because the calibration process creates one for your monitor, i.e. a profile.
My calibration software (Eye One Match 3) recommends, for an LCD monitor, 6500k for colour temperature and 120cd/m2 luminance, (= white point or brightness setting).
Terry

I my software setting "white balance" screen I adjusted color gain, brightness and contrast, as well as "offset" a little. Until all the values: color temp. and luminance were within specs suggested by software. BTW I used gamma 2.2. Did I do something wrong?

That is correct for Windows.
Does you software report, at the end of calibration, what it has achieved? Eg. Colour Temperature, gamma, min and max luminance? If it does and all looks good, then it's done  ;)
See reply #3 attachment on this thread for a typical result.
Terry.

It is close enough, but here are gamut for my monitor and printer in comparison to ProPhoto color space.
Does it look good?

It's as one would expect: the printer has a much smaller colour gamut than a good monitor. And, it makes a comment on the use of the ProPhoto Colour space, which is very much larger than any output device  :o
What you need to do is make some prints and check that what you see on the monitor matches (more or less) is the same as the print. However, the printer profile comes into the equation then.
I see you have one of Ilford's own profiles there; I never liked the results with those so had custom profiles made.
Terry.

It Is custom profile for Ilford Smooth Pearl paper.
My printer output is very good comparing to what I see on the monitor.
How does monitor gamut look to you?

It's hard to tell from the diagram; a comparison with Adobe RGB would be more realistic as good monitors now have a gamut close to that colour space. Really good ones (= very expensive) exeed Adobe RGB but would not come near ProPhoto.
I've attached a comparison for my Eizo (95% of Adobe RGB)
It's shows the projection of the gamuts, easier to compare  :)
Red = ProPhoto
Blue = Adobe RGB
Green = Monitor
Magenta = Epson R800 with Ilford Smooth Gloss
EDIT: I showed some other gamut comparisons here on this thread:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/computer-software/colour-gamut-visualisation/

No worries then  ;D
Terry.

Looks good.
When I try to follow this link
http://www.tglc.com/english/PerfX/3D_Gamut_Viewer.html
it cannot find the page.

Is Perfx for Mac only?

Looks like it's broken. It happened once before, try later. It's a French Canadian site.
No, there is a Windows version, I have 1.9. Google it and you may find an earlier version somewhere.

It still is although the main site is ok.
If you want to play with comparing profiles, try http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en/
You can upload a profile and compare, not only visually but quantitatively too.
To check a a calibration result and compare results, some calibration software, like Eye One Match 3, has a validation feature which checks the "dE2000" errors and tells you how much, in Lab terms, how much out of gamut the monitor is compared to the colour patches the calibration uses. I think I've got that more-or-less right  ;)
Attached is a graphical plot of what I get. An average value of <2 is good.
Terry.

Terry,
Would it be possible for you to send me Perfx Gamut to my email? If so I'll provide it.

Yes, sure.
Send me a message via the forum with your e-mail address and I'll then send it to you from my e-mail account. It's 1.7MB.
Don't put your address on a forum post or the spammers will get it  :o
Terry.

okay, I upgraded to win7 ultimate and everything seems to work.
I also updated NVIDIA driver.
Should recalibrate monitor now?
What, if my white luminance is less than 120 (117) and black luminance is .30? How these numbers affect profile?
Thank you!

Probably a good idea but you need to follow Mike's instructions for W7 to utilise the profile, new one or not.
Reply #12 http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/november-2009-win7-microsoft%27s-defiant-child/

117 is close enough to 120 I would think; 0.3 is the figure you had before I think and you cannot do much about it. As I said, I would have expected a figure a little lower but I have no feel for the practical difference between 0.3 and say 0.1. The luminance values don't have any great effect on the profile as far as I know, just the appearance of the screen with respect to brightness and contrast. If your prints are coming out ok. relative to the monitor rendition, don't worry about it.
Terry.

I just read Mike's article and see that he recommends turning of color calibration in Win7.
How to accomplish this is not clear to me. Could you help with step by step?
I just did it in "personalize" then display and color management, use my settings box checked.
Did I miss something?
Thanks!

Mike has given a step by step (18 of them) in that article, #12.
You won't get a better one than that  ;D
Terry.

Appreciate all your help.
I didn't know that, but I must be blind, I don't see any 18 steps in the article that you linked above. Is it an article I should be reading? Where should I start?
Lucky me, I didn't encounter any problems migrating to win7!
Sorry!

Follow the thread to:
Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 02:41:16 PM
Terry.

(1) Right click on the desktop and select "Personalize".
(2) Click "Display".
(3) Click "Change Display Settings".
(4) Click the tiny "Advanced Settings": link in blue.
(5) Click the "Color Management" tab.
(6) Click the "Color Management" button: only button on this tab.
(7) Click the "Advanced Tab".
[8] Click "Change System Defaults".
(9) Click the "Advanced Tab".
(10) Uncheck "Use Windows Display Calibration".
(11) Close out all open dialogs.
(12) Right click on your "Spyder2Express" icon on the desktop.
(13) Select "Run As Administrator": just opening it WILL NOT
WORK.
(14) Go through the process of profiling your monitor.
(15) Repeat steps (1) through (9) above, then
(16) CHECK "Use Windows Display Calibration".
(17) Click "Start", "All Programs", and open "Startup".
(18) Right click on the Colorvision Startup and delete it.

It maybe necessary to do with Colorvision, but with X-Rite EZColor it isn't necessary. It just works fine.

Adam,
I'm not convinced, yet  :o
Did you also follow Mike's suggestions to verify that your EZ profile is in place (read EZ profile name/software for Spyder name/software)? :-

Terry.

Well I am convinced. Profile is saved in a right directory and clicking in color management tab use my settings and EZColor makes your profile as default.
I only know that I had no problem upgrading to Win7 at all. Maybe my luck, but we will see as more folks update.
Thank you!

Thanks for coming back on this.
As long as they are not lulled into a false sense of security and do the checks as Mike suggests.
Terry.

Total Newbie... please forgive if I transgress something.  Need Help.  Just received U2410.  Adobie Photoshop 7 Elements and Photoshop 7 each give error message: "The monitor profile 'DELL U2410' appears to be defective.  Please rerun your monitor calibration software <Ignore Profile> <Use Anyway>".  Dell tech support pleasant but not much help and referred me here.  I assume that there may be a problem with Adobie reading the Dell_U2410.icm file.  I have tried each of the colour management options available in Elements 7 Editor <edit menu> without success.  The issue seems confined to Adobie as Nikon Scan 4, Corel draw 14 suite, Corel Painter 3 do not seem to have a problem (that I can see).  At the moment I do not own any colour calibration hardware/software. Any help/assistance appreciated.  David

David,
Unfortunately, no one with such an experience has yet replied.
I would suggest, if you wish, to attach that profile to an email and send it to me. I should be able to see if is acceptable using a tool that I have here.
Profile file sizes are very small so there should be no problem sending teh attachment.

fred.auerbach@gmail.com
or
wathree.ssz@verizon.com.

Fred

Hi David,

As time goes on, improvements??? happen. V7 of PS, is pretty old, it will not understand the later versions of icc profiles. Corel draw, b4 V7 had colour profiling turned off by default, so it doesn't care, I have no idea of the other software you mentioned, I just googled wrt cd.

There are tests out there, if you search for them. This is one of the penalties of upgrading too soon.

Best wishes,

Ray

David, if you want I'll share one of my U2410 profiles.
Dell's profile is corrupted somehow.

David's profile seems to be bad. It turned my screen green and I checked with two other people, and it turned theirs green also.
Fred

Thank you Fred,  Files received and seem to do the trick.  Assistance gratefully appreciated.  David

Hi David,
Owning a monitor calibrator is the first step to matching monitor to prints and making the most of Qimage with Colour Management.
Christmas is coming, put one on the present list.  ;D
Terry.

Hi Adam,  Thanks. Fred sent me a profile which seems to work. Thanks Fred.  However, I would welcome a copy of your profile just in case I find conflict issues with other apps on my PC. (Monitor is very new and I have not had chance to test it with all my apps yet).  David (e-mail address in my profile)

Thanks Terry.  Yes, you are quite correct and I am currently looking!  Regards,  David

Thanks Ray,  input much appreciated and yes you are right on all accounts.  Regards,  David

I d/l ColorEyes Pro software calibrated my monitor (Dell U2410) using OptixXR with it. It doesn't require any adjustment on the monitor itself, like color, brightness, etc.  You just set gamma, black point and more in software and it does the rest. How does software itself control monitor? I must say that I'm impressed with the result.

I wonder what is the best calibration combo for monitor these days?
I have OptixXR, which is very good, but it doesn't fully support in Win 7 32 bit environment and not at all in 64 bit. Time to get something better.
Anyone has an experience with Eye One Display 2 or Spyder? Wonder how they stack up against each other.
Suggestions are welcome.

Hi Adam,
I have an Eye One Display 2 and have been very pleased with it on a laptop, budget monitor and now an Eizo wide gamut monitor. There is now a W7 version of the iMatch 3 software which I assume is ok.  for 64 bit. You'd have to check the X-Rite web site to confirm. Compared to the Spyder, I like the compact sensing head.
One other possibility, depending on your budget, is a ColorMunki. This is a true spectral device and can be used for several purposes in addition to monitor calibration.  I understand it is excellent for that purpose and can make printer and projector profiles. It's on my wish list  ;)
Terry.

I don't need a munky, because I calibrate only monitors anymore. Printer profiles I out source now.

I stumbled on a shareware calibration program that is awesome. It calls Argyll. There also is GUI interface for it called DISPCALGUI and one more, but I don't remember its name. It's on source forge.
It's the best and its free. Much better than OEM programs. It supports most colorimeters.

Looks very Geeky to me and a pain that you have to install new drivers. Lots of settings available though which is ok if you know what they all mean  ::)
That depends on which ones you've used. I would say that the "simple" mode of some programs don't allow you set all that is required but I find that Eye-One Match 3 is very good and produces excellent profiles with my Eye One Display 2 device.
Argyll is certainly worth a try if you don't want to pay for new software, and in your case, gives your colorimeter a new lease of life.
Source Forge do some good stuff.
Terry.

Hi Terry,
Installation took only 4 minutes. It's not geeky at all and very simple, if you know a little bit about calibration of anything.
The other GUI has an option for printers, scanners, monitors, projectors, etc....and it's more icon oriented I guess. For dummies?
No reason to be upset that it's so good. :'( ::) ???
Are you calling me names? Geek....

Well  yes, ...  I used to run the calibration service for an engineering company, with mechanical & electrical labs.  8)
Not upset, just very happy with what I have.
You know what they say, "if the cap fits, wear it"  ;D
Seriously, it's good to know there are other, free, offerings out there. Thanks for telling us all.
Terry.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the link. I've seen it at just about the right time. I installed it - the gui - and followed the instructions. No problems. The dll for my xrite dtp94 installed flawlessly  :). I've profiled my monitor three times so far, playing around with trying to get the best settings in the monitor hardware, and seeing the effect of different ambient lighting settings and so forth. It is slow, since it is doing a lot of work, but it is thorough and precise, gradually tuning the settings as it proceeds, sort of.

I have just got back into this vdu profiling, having recently bought a different printer, and I do not want to waste ink or canvas, and this software, in particular the help/explanation file, is far better than the Monaco Optix software I have been using, imnsho. Unfortunately, both my monitor and puck do not allow some of the adjustments/settings available on more advanced equipment, but I expect I can email the author and get a reply to more appropriate general settings. As far as I'm concerned, this software is allowing me to get a better understanding of what is happening compared to the information available from optix, since fewer assumptions are made. In fact in some areas, the instructions for optix conflict with their actual software settings  ???.

Best wishes,

Ray

Which monitor are you profiling? If you have RGB adjustments (gain and offset), brightness and contrast in your monitor OSD, then you should be fine. Some suggest setting all monitor setting to defaults before calibrating it.

Hi Adam,

It's a NEC multisync LCD2070NX. I've just found it has an inbuilt setting for 5000 colour temp, and adjustable rgb, i was using it on it's default of 'Native'. I've also emailed the author re. possibility of using the puck as an ambient light meter. Optix say you can, but it is not mentioned in their software, afaik. A minor snag, is that the monitor menu appears dead centre, as does the software colour patch. As best as I can tell, using an old  Weston M5 light-meter and doing conversions, is that my ambient lighting is about 40lux, but I've no idea as to the colour - it's one of these low energy fluorescent lamps.

Best wishes,

Ray

Well, I received a very helpful response from the author within 30 minutes of sending my request  :)

What does this chart mean?

Hi Adam,

It is a graphical representation of you video card lut. For example, to get an output of 128 for green channel, it requires an input of aprox 140. If you really want to puzzle over it, download the icc profile inspector, linked from here, say,  http://www.iccview.de/content/blogcategory/10/18/lang,en/.

It also shows you can't get black, or white, but near enough not to worry, I expect  (to get to black you'd have to input values less than zero, and to achieve a white it would be a tad more than 256).

In the help file, it is explained how the curve can be adjusted at the extremities, to get a better profile, iirc. (black output offset)

The grey line indicates an uncalibrated/perfect situation, no lut being required, the input equals the output.

Plenty of settings to fiddle with, if you have a mind to.

hth.

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Ray
Which of this represent the best profile?

See attached for a benchmark from Eye-One Match 3 software and an Eizo S2242W
Terry.

Hi Adam,

'Best' is the problem :). If you read the help file, it explains in some detail how the profiles/curves can be altered, for specific purposes. I think if you run some tests with your own images, you may not notice much difference in using any of these profiles, except in the dark areas, maybe. If you spend a day or two on http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html - and following the various links, there are various test strips and charts you can try, and other explanations.

I've sent you a pm.

Best wishes,

Ray

Where did you send pm? what is it?
Thank you!

up top of screen, my messages - click on it - you have an input and an output box

Hello,

I am new to the forum and have just registered to share my concerns about the U2410 monitor. I got it about 10 days ago, I also purchased Eye One 2 to calibrate it. As I can see, Terry has the same calibrator and his results are excellent. My results were disaster. Basically on both Normal White mode and 6500 I never was able to reach luminence close to 120 even at 100 brightness. I will post more details later. However, I believe that this could be a monitor issue rather than the calibrator problem, which is a brand new.

I will read the whole forum again and look at the calibration results when I am home. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as my experience with monitors calibration is next to nothing.
Thank you in advance,

Roma

Terry should be back on here by late tomorrow. He is busy for a few days.

Fred

Roma--  Just for kicks, try these settings when you recalibrate:

Brightness:  30
Contrast: 50
Preset Mode:  Standard

Hello,

Thank you for the advice, ChasP505. I will certainly try.
Roma

Roma,
From what I gather from many forums colorimeter doesn't do a very good job calibrating "wide gamut" monitors. For that you need Colormunki, which is spectrophotometer, like i1 pro. Another alternative is to get correction matrix from Quata, which makes iDisplay Color, but it costs additional. I can't accurately calibrate with dpt94 (OPTIXXR) either. These are the only ways to get good calibration of such a monitors.
Read on the forums and you will see what I mean.

Hello Adam,
Thank you for your opinion. You probably are very right. As my experience is very limited (to one monitor) I can not say anything. I have my old ViewSonic and will try the Eye One 2 on it tomorrow. As I can see from the forum, Terry has successfully used this device. So far, results which I posted on another forum here are very bad with luminance reaching only 37.5 at 6500K set up.
I have read that some people have successfully used LaCie Blue Eye for the monitor. Is it better? Could you tell? I have been told that it is the same puck with different software.
Thank you,
Roma

that is, an EyeOne Display 2
That is correct and with a wide gamut monitor. I use the Advanced mode which allows setting everything but I leave the Contrast setting at "Native" (50% in my case)
I doubt that most people would not "see" any difference whether calibrated with a colorimeter or spectro' device. A comparison of validation results might reveal a difference. Does the ColorMunki have a validation feature in it's software?
Terry

There is nothing to verify, because your results are false in the first place.
you need correction matrix or spectrophotometer device. The colorimeter wont do.

So you also need a means of calibrating the spectro' against a traceable "standard" and check it at regular intervals. Don't tell me about the principals of calibration, I was a professional at it.
.... needs numbers to say what won't do. Have you ever seen the "Uncertainty" of measurement" values for any monitor calibration device, this is more than just "accuracy".

Well, a lot of colorimeter devices are sold and many pro's and advanced amateur photographers use them.
You can become too fussy on these matters especially as colour is a matter of perception for most photographers and I know, from my supplier who is a graphics industry expert, that devices like the EyeOne 2 display are perfectly adequate for most purposes. This particularly applies with monitors that do not have hardware calibration.

Roma already has the EyeOne 2 Display device and what seems to be a "modest" monitor so let's help him with what he has got!

For the record, about "validation" (not verification)
Validation merely gives the dE2000 errors for the current monitor icc profile using the same device as was used for the calibration. These dE2000 errors, in simple terms,  are a measure of out-of-gamut amount of the monitor in relation to the test colour patches. A value is given for each patch and an average.
It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the measuring device but does give an indication of the monitor gamut in relation to the test patches.

Terry.

Think about it...
What the Munki will allow you to do is to get a more accurate calibration and profile, because it will not suffer from the effects of a wide-gamut screen like a colorimeter (e.g.  dtp94 measures a certain color temperature, say 6500K, the real value may be several 100K off for wide-gamut unless the values are corrected. Same for the primaries and other colors). Please note that this increase of 'absolute' accuracy will NOT show in things like profile verification/validation results, because a profile built from one set of (wrong) measurements from a colorimeter and wide-gamut screen will also verify good against another set of (wrong) measurements of the same colorimeter and screen (if the screen parameters are the same and it hasn't drifted much).
It's sort of like blind leading blind.
It just cannot be done with colorimeter without corrective matrix.

Yes, the whole idea of using the device that produced the profile to check the profile is flawed.
However, the proof is in the pudding, I get excellent monitor to print matching which is, in the end, what matters.
When someone invents a printing system with a gamut approaching that of a monitor, then the finer points of calibration may become more relevant, but I don't see that happening just yet.
Terry.

I see it more as the device patting itself on the back for doing such a good job for such a low purchase price.