Hi James,

I have a Pro9000 (Mk1) and a Pro-100S.  Many years ago I wasted heaps of paper and ink  trying to get colours correct, using other printers.

The solutions was to use colour management.  I am not sure what videos you are referring too, but if you check out Jose Rodriguez Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz9YXaSulpM90vC24lmAeZA
I believe he has a video on using Qimage to set up the printer using colour management.  However, my first thoughts are:

- Have you adjusted your monitor?
- Did you create your own paper profile for the HP paper or did you download a profile?
It's unlikely HP offer a profile for a Canon printer, so if you downloaded one, where did you get it (them, one for each printer)?

Bruce

I think it’s reached a point now where I can sum up how the printer behaves re purge cycles.  I have not done any testing of the 480 hour timer and I don’t currently intend to do any such tests.  However, I note that Jose Rodriguez has indicated in a video he uploaded today, that he will do this test.

First I will fill you in on the changes I made to the SDLs a few days back:  The test results from 28th and 29th June suggested to me that one of my assumptions had been incorrect.  My assumption had been that the volume of ink purged for a Manual purge, a 120 hour purge and an ink cart removal were the same.  I decided to go back to the Pro9000 Service Manual to see if I had missed something.  When I first looked at the Service Manual I cherry picked the items I was interested in at the time, since there are several cases listed which invoke a purge.  For example if you remove the printhead and replace it with a different head you get different levels of purge than replacing the same head.  When you first setup the printer there is a significant purge.  For the Pro9000 the manual clean and a cartridge removal result in a purge of the same level.  However, a 120 hour purge results in about a 21% less purge than the manual purge. One reason I missed the above difference was that I was looking at the duration of a purge (easy to test), which is the same for all 3 types of purge for the Pro9000.

There were 3 main changes to the SDLs:  The first change was to assign an extra value to P1 and P2.  ie.  0, 1, 2, and 3 representing: No Purge, Low Purge, Medium Purge and High Purge respectively.  Where Low is for the 120 hour, Medium is for a Manual or Cart removal and High is for Deep Purge (480 hour or Deep Manual).  The second change was to handle error cases such as Paper Jam and the 3rd change was to expand out the case for a manual purge request while a purge was pending.

Anyway,  I had a 120 hour Group 1 purge yesterday (3rd July) and a 120 hour Group 2 purge today.  I have updated and uploaded the spreadsheet (Issue 3) with the new data, which helps to confirm that the 120 hour purge uses slightly less ink than the manual or cart removal purges.  As mentioned previously, I have used colour coded columns, in the spreadsheet, to easily identify the amount of ink lost in either a purge or between tests.  Since I recently added a column for manual purges I will define them here again:

Green is the period between tests (usually 5 days but sometimes less), Blue (Cyan) is a 120 hour purge, Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s and Magenta is a manual purge.  

 Of some interest is that my Yellow cart started flashing yesterday after the Group 1 purge and my Grey started flashing today after the Group 2 purge.  Hence they both now are shown as “ink low” via the printer driver.  The yellow went low while transitioning from 18.87g to 18.62g, whereas the grey went low while transitioning from 19.03g to 18.74g.  So, it would appear that the ink low warning happens around 18.8g.  You can actually tell when it is going to happen because you can see the small amount of ink left in the tank side of the cart just before it happens.

I will use the current carts until they run out, based on recommendations from Jose Rodriguez. I intend storing the old carts in case I decide to refill in future.  I have bought a full set of OEM replacements and plan to weigh full and empty carts when I do the swap, this will allow me to get a better cost estimate of the purges.  I also plan to confirm there is no purge when I change the cartridge.  Until now, all my testing of cartridge removal is when the printer is registering some level of ink in that cartridge.  An empty cartridge may trigger a different response.  However, based on the Pro9000 Service Manual, I am no expecting any difference.

Here is my summary of the data in the spreadsheet, for the Pro-100S:

1.   With the exception of a manual purge, if a purge of one group takes place, a small amount of ink is lost in the other group.  Suggests keeping the 2 group purges synchronised is worthwhile if they are only a day or 2 apart.  (Note: I have only performed a single manual purge and it was on group 2 only)

2.   The average ink purged for a 120 hour purge of both groups is 1.995g (call it 2g). It is not evenly dispersed over the 2 groups, but the difference is quite small (4.6%) and may balance out over a longer period of testing.  This figure does not include ink lost in a group not being purged during a single group purge.

3.   The average ink purged for a manual purge or cartridge removal in both groups is 2.21g (call it 2.2g).  Hence about 10% more for a medium purge versus a low purge.  Again it is not evenly dispersed between group 1 and group 2 (5.5% difference), but in this case it is reversed, in that the group 2 loss is slightly higher than group 1.

4.   Looking at columns L and V we see how much ink was lost over 5 days, when no print jobs were sent to the printer.  Column L is for power off  and column V is for power on.  Total ink lost was 0.18g and 0.06g respectively.  Just to confuse the picture, column R is for a single night with power on, which lost 0.11g.  Column F adds a tiny bit more data, but only represents one cartridge for when the power was turned on and off over the 5 days.  I would have to say the data is inconclusive and tend to think it’s the test itself that causes the ink loss.  ie.  The uncapping and recapping of the printhead. The same explanation could apply to point 1. above.  ie.  Ink lost in groups not being purged.

For items 1 and 2 above, if the ink lost during a purge which is in a group not being purged at that time is included in the figures, the total figures are 2.08g (120 hr purge) and 2.38g (Cart removal).

I have not actually printed on paper since 17th June.  All purges were induced by sending Form Feeds to the printer.  I still can’t say whether it is worth turning the printer off after use or leaving it on permanently.  I don’t believe there is a purge as a result of turning the printer off and then on, since the ink lost is very small and similarly a small amount is lost even if you leave the printer on continuously.

If we compare the test results for the Pro-100S to the Service Manual for the Pro9000, we get:
- Pro-100S:  2.0g/2.2g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)
- Pro9000: 1.9g/2.3g (Low Purge/Medium Purge)

For the Pro9000 a Deep (Heavy) Clean uses 3.8g, so we can expect about a 4.0g purge for the Pro-100.  In this case the Service Manual shows the same level for a Manual Deep clean and a 480 hour deep clean.

Bruce

I have just uploaded Issue 2 of the SDLs and description.

I will explain in detail when my printer timers expire over the next 2 days and I get some data that will (think positive) confirm some of my changes.
The Group 1 timer expires tomorrow and the Group 2 timer expires the next day.
Bruce

I forgot to mention that when I powered up yesterday (28th June), it took 50s, whereas previously it has taken 30s, when using the front panel.  There is nothing in the ink levels to suggest more ink was used.
Today I decided to do a manual clean on Group 2 only, just to measure the ink usage.
I have updated the spreadsheet.  For the time being there are 2 spreadsheets.  The one with the "2" in the file name is the latest.  I will delete the other one soon.

The ink used for the manual clean is very similar to when I removed ink carts for Group 2.
Bruce

I turned my Pro-100 off on the morning of the 24th June and left it off until 15:!5 today.
I weighed all inks 3 times (ie weighed, lifted off the scales and weighed again) and used the average value.  I then tried to confirm the accumulated time a cartridge can be removed before a purge.  Not easy to do for such a short timer.  Plenty of room for human error.  Particularly if removing and replacing several times in the 60s.  Anyway, long story short, I was at about 55s when the purge happened.  That test was on Group 2 using the Cyan cartridge.  I decided to try again using Group 1, Photo Magenta.  However, this time I got 57s.

I am quite sure the reason for the shortfall is just human error and we can safely assume the timer is 60s.

I have uploaded a spreadsheet to the same Dropbox link where I uploaded the SDLs.  This spreadsheet shows all the ink measurements I have made since I started weighing the cartridges.  For cases where I took multiple reading at the same time, I have averaged the reading.

I have used the following colour coded columns:  Green is the 5 day period, Blue is 120 hour purge and Pink is a purge due to a cartridge being removed for more than 60s.

I didn’t check the data until after I had finished all the tests.  I realised when I analysed the data I had somehow triggered both groups to purge the first time. ie. Column N.  This was supposed to be Group 2 only.  Thinking about possible reasons, I think what happened is that on the 23rd June I noticed the PC cartridge was not plugged in properly just after I replaced the LGY after weighing.  So I suspect when I took the LGY out I accidently pressed the release for the PM cart.  Since I was weighing the cartridges 3 times today it took longer than usual, so this all added up to cause the additional purge.

Just for completeness I sent another Form Feed to the printer at 22:50, to confirm that no further purge was waiting for a print job.  There wasn’t any further purge waiting.  There would have been a purge due had I not removed the cartridges for more than 60s.

Bruce
 

I had always assumed it was hardware based, but good to know, from your test, that it almost certainly is hardware based.  By that I mean firmware.

I think if someone was determined to change the timers they could do so by analysing and modifying the firmware.  However, I think the issue here comes back to what you said previously about Canon determining a suitable timer value to avoid print-head clogs.  For pigment inks, it would appear the timers need to be shorter (just my wild assumption).  The problem is that OEM inks cost so much more than 3rd party inks, that us consumers tend to be very sceptical, when we hear the printer making noises that sound anything like cleaning.  When these noises happen just as we send print jobs to the printer and we know we have been printing regularly we get even more sceptical.  Canon would have done themselves a favour to have been up front about how the cleaning happens.  I know I would have been less sceptical.

With my Pro9000, I quickly moved to 3rd Party inks, because of how quickly the first set of carts seemed to empty, and in addition I kept hearing all the noises I assumed were cleaning of the heads and hence using the ink which was not being used on prints.  I now believe I made a mistake because I made quite a few canvas prints, which I gave as presents and was embarrassed when they quickly started to fade.  I did not use any protection spray at the time either.  I have now reprinted them all, mostly with the Pro-100 using OEM and used Hahnemuhle Varnish, which is a roll on.  Hopefully they last a lot longer.  The cost in damaged print-heads, my time and reprinting would have justified staying with OEM.
Bruce

Mike, you are now in charge of your printer cleaning cycles.
If you noted the time you did the nozzle check the next purge will be due120 hours later, unless you do a manual clean or remove an ink tank for longer than 60s, or there is a major error such as a paper jam.
Just remembered the SDLs don't cover the paper jam case.

Bruce

I have uploaded SDLs and a text description document to the following Drop Box link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8j6zm6zwc3pc7xg/AADhGRd_4HTNmyQtX90dFsVla?dl=0

The text document is in rtf format (2 pages) and the SDLs are in gif format (4 pages).

I would have preferred pdf but it was not an option in the application I used to create the SDLs.  Consequently each page of the SDL is a file.  Hence 5 files total.

It may look daunting to some at first, but a lot is duplication and if you read the description in conjunction with the SDLs it should quickly become clear.

I have marked the documents as Issue 1, with the intention of updating as more info comes to light, or errors are identified.
Bruce

I don't believe there are any options to change the 120 and 480 hours permanently.
All you can do is force a clean to restart them or delay printing to defer them.

I have created some SDL diagrams and am part way through a description, so should be posting later today.
It's only morning in this part of the world.

Once you see the SDLs you may like to suggest what tests can be performed.  The most difficult tests relate to the 480 hour timer, because it's such a long time to go without printing and you would need to do it several times to test variations.

Bruce

Mike, Sorry I forgot to respond to your question about auto power on/off.

Since I use WiFi for the Pro-100 I cannot use the auto power on for that situation.  I think I can use the auto power off.
Maybe I could use a LAN cable.
But to answer you question; it's worth testing anything that has the potential to change the behaviour.  In this case I think the chance it will change is low.
I think it is more likely that power off at the mains is going to change the behaviour.  I think in my earlier test the startup time was about 60s using mains power switch vs 30s using front panel switch.
So there is definitely more happening when you power on and off via the mains.

By the way, I am now thinking of not printing until 28th.  I have powered down and plan to leave the printer off until 28th.  I was not happy with my small sample test last time.

Bruce

Just to add some more clarity, my plan now is to lift the Cyan cartridge for 40s on 28th June at about 15:30. I may be using the printer in the next 5 days, so weighing may not be any value.
I will then print a FF, lift the Cyan for 2 minutes, print a FF, etc, until the FF initiates a purge of Group2 prior to the paper feed.  That way I should get the value of the timer within 2 minutes.  The 15:30 time is so I don't initiate the Group 1 clean with the FF until I finished my test.  That would confuse the process.

Now to add some muddy water; in my mind the biggest unknown still is how a normal manual clean interacts with a Heavy clean if 480 hours has elapsed.  I can't imagine the 480 hour timer is reset and I cannot imagine the 2 timers are not reset at the same time.  So does the printer just do a Heavy clean, despite only requesting a light clean?

I have been thinking of drawing up an SDL diagram to show how I believe the printer cleaning phases work.  An SDL is a bit like a flow diagram, only better.

Bruce

Mike, You seem to have misinterpreted what happened.
The printer still keeps the timers running when it is turned off.
The sequence (in summary) was:
- Previous clean was on 18th June at about 20:00.  Hence next clean was due at approx 20:00 on 23rd June (but I did not print until 20:35 on 23rd June).
- I powered on and off several times during the 5 days and did not print.
- I powered on at 16:00 on 23rd June.
- I essentially forced one group (Group 1) to clean, by taking the PC cartridge out for 76s.  That has reset the timer for Group 1, but not Group2.
- I waited until 20:35 (printer on) and sent a print job (FF).  This caused the autoclean for Group 2 only, resetting it's timer.

So as you pointed out in your post, you can delay the clean by not printing, for as long as you are willing to take that risk, but you also cannot print.  The first print you do after the timer expires (including a form feed) will cause the purge before the print is performed.  So I just delayed the print job for 35min.

Bruce

Good point about the 3rd party inks.
I guess only experience is going to shed some light on these questions.  Either way I don't plan to let my printer sit unused for 20 days if I can help.

For the last 5 days, since the last programmed auto purge I have deliberately not printed with my Pro-100S.  I have been turning it on and off via the front panel at regular intervals.  Each time I powered on I timed how long before it stopped moving and making noises, which was typically 30s each time. There was no set time period between switching on and off, but it was switched off and on about 5 or 6 times.  The printer had probably spent 75% of the time off and 25% of the time on.  Today I powered on at 16:00, knowing the printer was due for it’s 120 hour purge at roughly 20:00.

I first sent a Form Feed to confirm there was no purge forthcoming.  There was no purge.

I then, after a few minutes, weighed the LGY cartridge.  It was 21.14g.  I put it back in and took it out 2 more times, weighing each time.  Results were 21.17g and 21.16g.  When I last weighed this cartridge, as the 5 day test period started, it weighed 21.20g. Not a very clever or definitive test.  I could not find any information about the accuracy of my scales, but some of the above results give the impression it’s not too bad. The lost ink in one cartridge seems to be about 0.05g.  Over 8 cartridges that’s would total 0.4g.

Previous tests show a single cartridge loses 0.24g during an auto purge, or 1.9g over all 8 cartridges.

I sent another form feed.  No purge.  The accumulated time for the LGY cartridge being out of the printer had not been timed, but I estimated it was getting close to the 60s timer mentioned in the Pro9000 Service Manual as a trigger for initiating a purge.  There had not been a purge so I now decided to test by taking the PC cartridge out for more than 60s.  It was out for approx 76s.  I chose PC because it is in Group 1, whereas LGY is in Group 2.  I sent a Form Feed.  Result was a purge followed by the form feed.

I now measured all 8 cartridges.  The cartridges in Group 1 had a total loss of 1.13g (average of 0.28g per cartridge).  The cartridges in Group 2 had lost a total or 0.09g (average of 0.02g per cartridge).  I then did another form feed to confirm I had not tipped the LGY cartridge over the timer limit.  There was no further purge.

Group 1 and Group 2 are now out of synch, re purge times) by about 4 hours.  I waited until 20:35 and sent a form feed.  A purge resulted.

I measured the weight of all 8 cartridges. The cartridges in Group 2 had lost a total of 0.9g (average of 0.235g per cartridge).  The cartridges in Group 1 had lost a total of 0.01g.

In summary, there was a small loss of ink over the last 5 days (approx 0.05g in one cartridge), following several power up and down episodes, with no print jobs.  The test sample was too small to be confident in the result.  I suspect any loss is more likely from wiping the print-head to avoid drops on printer paper.

As determined previously, it is possible to remove and replace a cartridge within a defined period without triggering a purge.  That time period is less than 76s and more than likely 60s, as defined for the Pro9000 in it’s Service Manual.  If this timer expires for any given cartridge, it triggers a purge for the group to which that cartridge belongs, when the next print job is sent to the printer.  The amount of ink purged, per cartridge, is close to that amount purged during the 120 hour purge.
A group purge related to the 60s cartridge remove and insert resets the 120 hour timer for that group only.

The purge cycles for the 2 segments of my printhead are now out of synch by 4.5 hours.  ie.  Group 1, now due to purge at 16:00 on 28th June and Group 2 is due at 20:35 same day.
I timed how long I had the Cyan cartridge out of the printer (15s), so that next time I can get a more accurate value for the expected 60s timer.
 
Bruce

I have just been watching Jose Rodriguez PHOTO PRINTING TECHIE LIVE Stream for last Saturday 16th June 2018.  He gives a good explanation of the noises heard about 30 or so after a print.
I recommend you watch the relevant section, to which the following link will take you:

 https://youtu.be/VYcYrHt6HEk?t=2h2m42s

You can of course watch the whole video.  I have just cued the segment relevant to this thread.

In summary he confirms this is not a clean cycle but a pumping of ink from the purge pads and a head wipe.  The only ink being wasted from the cartridges is any loose drops that would otherwise leave smears on your print.  It's a good thing, just a little frustrating too hear those noises while wondering if it could be a clean activity, wasting ink.
Bruce

It is still early days for my Pro100S.  I am only half way through the original ink set.
Here are my estimates of current ink levels:
- M, PC and C at about 60%
- Bk, PM and LGY about 50%
- Y and GY about 40%

The impression I got from forums was that the greys and black were used most.  It obviously depends a lot on what you print.
I use to refill my Pro9000 and looking at the ink that is left in the refill bottles, Yellow and Black seem to be used most.  The others are at similar levels.

Bruce