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Author Topic: COLOR MANAGEMENT WOES  (Read 17674 times)
Darius
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« on: October 16, 2012, 05:01:06 PM »

I’ve just gotten a new HP Officejet Pro 8600 printer and one of the hardest things is getting the colors to be anything like they are on monitor display.  Regardless of what printer profile (I’ve tried several) I use, nothing is right, and further, there are differences in color between prints on regular paper vs. those on Premium HP Photo Papers.  I make sure that all of the settings in the printer driver are set correctly for each type/brand of photo paper I use.  Not only are the colors inconsistent, but the prints are generally darker, to the point that details in a carpet that show up on screen are totally absent in the print! 

I’ve read others’ posts on this topic, but can’t seem to follow the level of instruction.  Generally, what is an optimum printer profile for my printer?  TIA 
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Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »

Hi Darius,
Let's start at the beginning and with some questions.
Is you monitor calibrated with some form of colorimeter device? This is the starting pint for colour management.
I should say that the monitor profile has no direct effect on the print but does affect the way the image appears on the screen and therefore affects how you see any image adjustments.

What paper are you using and what are the profiles have you got?
Do they match a) the printer, b) the ink set you are using, c) the paper you are using?
I see from the HP web site they do not seem to supply profiles for this printer, maybe because it is not specifically a "photo" printer.
Independent paper suppliers usually supply profiles for a whole range of printers with their paper, check their web sites if appropriate.

If all this is good, have you set the driver correctly such there are no colour adjustments made by the driver. There is often documentation supplied with a printer profile which tells you how to set the driver.
Is Qimage set up with the monitor profile and printer profile? All this should be visible in the Job properties, bottom right of the main screen.

Quote
Not only are the colors inconsistent, but the prints are generally darker, to the point that details in a carpet that show up on screen are totally absent in the print!
Prints darker that screen is usually caused by the monitor being too bright. A calibration device with good supplied software will allow you to set brightness to a set value. If not then it's necessary adjust the brightness to match a print and then calibrate.
Quote
Generally, what is an optimum printer profile for my printer?
It's not what is "optimum" but what is correct and matches what I said in a, b & c above and setting the driver correctly.

If you cannot get a profile for your printer/paper combination, you can use "Let driver Manage Colour" in Qimage. You still must set the paper type correctly in the driver.
The Help says;
Quote
Printer/driver manages color (default): If you do not have a profile (ICM file) specifically designed for the printer, paper, and ink you are using, it may be best to let the printer/driver handle color.  In its default "out of the box" configuration, Qimage will allow the printer/driver to determine how to adjust color based on the paper type and quality selections made in the print driver.  If you have made other selections for the printer profile in the past and would like to instruct Qimage to revert to allowing the print driver to manage color, simply select "Edit", "Preferences", "Color Management" from the main menu in Qimage, check the "Enable" box on the "Printer" tab and then press the "Let Printer/Driver Manage Colors" button.  If the button is disabled, Qimage is already allowing the driver to manage colors.  While this mode of operation will ensure good color even with the "ICM" checkbox unchecked in the driver, it is best to select the "ICM" option in your print driver if that option is available.  Also, if your driver offers settings under the ICM heading, be sure to select "Applied by Printer Software" or its equivalent (do not select "no color adjustment"). 

Terry


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Darius
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 06:42:41 PM »

I have not calibrated the monitor with any specific colorimeter device, however I have set both contrast & brightness levels with a 256-shade-grayscale  image that I downloaded and followed directions for that in setting the adjustments.  Also, I can say that my image in question will look a lot more similar on other monitors than it would on a printout from my printer.

Yes, I am definitely (and I stressed this in my post) making sure that the driver settings for type of paper, etc. are being set in the printer driver. 

The profiles I've used are:
scRGB virtual device model profile
sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Wide Gamut RGB

Of these, the Wide Gamut seemed to do the most justice, but the colors were quite dull. 

I'm setting the profile by way of opening the print properties from within Control Panel.  In Qimage, I simply invoke the setting to let the printer driver manage the printing. 
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Terry-M
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 06:54:06 PM »

Quote
however I have set both contrast & brightness levels with a 256-shade-grayscale  image that I downloaded and followed directions for that in setting the adjustments.
Unfortunately that doe not produce a monitor icc profile. Colour management is all about using icc profiles.
Quote
The profiles I've used are:
scRGB virtual device model profile
sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Wide Gamut RGB
None of those are printer profiles  Roll Eyes  Sad
Quote
I'm setting the profile by way of opening the print properties from within Control Panel.  In Qimage, I simply invoke the setting to let the printer driver manage the printing.
All driver settings should be done from Qimage using the 3rd icon in from the top right.
When using "let driver manage colour", do as the Help says for driver settings, as quoted in my 1st post, or look directly in the Help.
Terry


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Fred A
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 08:14:47 PM »

Quote
All driver settings should be done from Qimage using the 3rd icon in from the top right.
When using "let driver manage colour", do as the Help says for driver settings, as quoted in my 1st post, or look directly in the Help.
Terry

Darius,
With all due respect, this is a scanner, fax machine, copier, and a printer. As far as my research goes, it offers no printer profiles...
Nevertheless, with Qimage, you can get the best prints possible if you follow these guidelines.

The driver is set to ICM.... No other stuff that you mentioned to Terry as he was right on the money! They were not printer profiles.
Set Qimage to Let Printer Manage Color..

If there is no setting called ICM, then set to RGB colorsmart. I think that's all the choices that might be available.

Print!

Of course, tell the driver what paper you are using and to use the best quality output....

That's all you can do.

Fred
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KolinP
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 06:26:00 AM »

Hello Darius,

I use an HP 8600 OfficeJet printer too, and although I never had any hopes (or intentions) of using it to print photos, after a few experiments I'm very pleased and slightly surprised that I am getting fair-quality colour prints from it!  The absolute control over the printer that I'm enjoying with Qimage, and the confidence it gives me to run comparative test-prints is bliss - pure bliss!

Darius,
With all due respect, this is a scanner, fax machine, copier, and a printer. As far as my research goes, it offers no printer profiles...
I can confirm this!  (As also mentioned by Terry) It's a fact that HP don't supply any ICC profiles for this printer, which I think is very very odd, even though it's marketed primarily as an office-machine.

So even though I've got a fully colour-managed workflow - with a calibrated monitor especially - the only "color-management" option we've got for this printer is to trust it to render our prints with its built-in sRGB "profile", and to prepare our photos accordingly.  In other words, to trim our colours in our image editor to suit an sRGB printer gamut.

This is giving me very respectable prints, with colours and tones that do match those on my monitor, but with some understandable variations based on (a) the well-known fact that the reflective print surface will never have quite the same 'fidelity' that we see on our radiating monitors, and (b) the annoying fact that the names on the packaging on HP's free-sample papers don't exactly match the names provided in the 8600's print-preferences drop-down list of paper types! and (c) when using a third-party/non-HP paper type with this printer then of course we'll get variable results, because the HP driver doesn't "know" how best to manage its impressively high-definition ink-flow onto that alien paper. Hence the need for some test prints.

On that last point, when I'm doing comparative tests I keep careful notes about the "most successful" prints so that I know which "HP printer paper" was theoretically set in my 8600 driver, coupled with which paper-type was physically loaded in my printer-tray.  I record the 8600-driver-named paper type in a meaningfully-named Qimage "Printer Setup", knowing I can reliably return to exactly that driver setting.

As an example, when I load my paper tray with Kodak Premium Photo Paper (250gsm, Gloss)(currently available at good discounts!) I get optimal colour rendition when I "tell" the 8600 driver that it will be printing onto either of "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper", or "HP Advanced Photo Paper".  But conversely, onto that same paper, if I "told" the 8600 that it would be printing onto "HP Bright White Paper" then I'd get wishy-washy pale colours in comparison. (Of course some good or silly permutations can be guessed-at in advance  Smiley )

Nevertheless, with Qimage, you can get the best prints possible if you follow these guidelines.
(....) Set Qimage to Let Printer Manage Color..
I agree. Setting Qimage to "Let printer/driver manage color" in the "Prtr ICC" option on the Qimage Job Properties tab is working well for me.

Of course, tell the driver what paper you are using and to use the best quality output....
I concur.

In fact - on the setting for "best quality output" - although I might be wrong to give credit for this to Qimage, I do thank Qimage and it's marvellous interaction with my printer for the fact that whenever I set my preferred paper type using that Printer/page setup button (the "3rd icon in from the top right" mentioned earlier by Terry), then my printer driver / 8600 preferences are automatically set to "Output Quality" = "Best".  I haven't had to set this myself so far.

I still hope to buy a "proper" colour printer some day!  But in the meantime, for my "not for serious sale" photo prints, I'm rather pleased with this "sRGB only" 8600 OfficeJet printer!

Colin P.
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Fred A
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 09:27:17 AM »

Colin P

Hi,
Glad you hopped in with some hands on help for Darius.
I have an Officejet 6000 which we generally use for printing on plain paper from the internet.
Once in a while, I'll use that printer for as 8 x 10 glossy with Qimage set to Let Printer Manage color and the driver I think was Colorsmart RGB.
The irony in a sense is that I like the HP Advanced Glossy paper which I buy by the 100 sheet box usually from HP when on sale.

I use that for give away prints all the time from my Epson printer. It has good contrast, and I made a printer profile for the paper for my Epson using Profile Prism, and I am very happy with it.
The colors are luscious too.

Fred
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KolinP
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 08:35:35 PM »

Thanks Fred for that nudge about the HP paper.

Your experience-based recommendation on paper-types is worth a thousand test-prints  Cool  so - coupled with my new-found confidence in my 8600 as a moderately capable colour printer - I've added a box of HP Advanced Glossy paper to my shopping list for this weekend.

I'd been wondering if was worthwhile to get a calibration profile for this printer, given that it's only got 3 colour-inks plus black, but perhaps it would be worthwhile after all.  I haven't bought Profile Prism (yet), but I have already used an IT8-target-based profiling scheme (from Wolfe Faust) to calibrate my scanners (I've got an Epson 3170 as well as the scanner in the 8600) ... so I've already done some of the preliminary stuff.  Another 'plus' point (although it's a bitter-sweet one) is that the 8600 printer insists on using only HP-branded inks, so I should at least have consistency in the 'inks' department.

So yes ... a printer profile would nicely close that "colour management loop", and I'd be happily liberated from the "default sRGB presumption" that's locked into the 8600!  I'll review the Profile Prism pages ...

@To Darius, acknowledging your original query:
Sorry if I've slightly hijacked your post with that detour onto paper-types, but hopefully my thinking-aloud to Fred on printer profiles will add some insights to help answer your query.  I'm sure that the absence of specific printer profiles from HP for the OfficeJet 8600 is an exception in the printer market, and (to recap ...) we then have no choice but (a) to presume an sRGB colour space for our "final printer profile", even when we want to print onto different papers, or (b) to take the rather more exotic route of generating our own printer profile(s) (one profile for every permutation of paper-type + ink-brand!), using additional tools like Profile Prism, plus some extra hardware like a scanner.

The HP OfficeJet 8600 is a Curate's Egg of a printer for sure!!!

Colin P.
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Fred A
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 09:05:31 PM »

Quote
So yes ... a printer profile would nicely close that "colour management loop", and I'd be happily liberated from the "default sRGB presumption" that's locked into the 8600!  I'll review the Profile Prism pages ...

I would hesitate to make any profiles for the HP printer unless you already have the application to use to make it and try it.
It isn't the tri color inks that  would hold me back as I profiled my old Epson 1280 which had a black and ONE tricolor cartridge. It is the inability (on my Officejet) to turn off the printer's influence on the outcome.
I have only two kinds of RGB to choose from. I have no OFF!   Printers that can be profiled want you to set the color management to NONE or OFF so the profile controls the color.
That Colorsmart RGB could be some variable color setting...

So I would advise you to relax, enjoy the printer, and worry about technical perfection until your wife buys you a nice Photo printer for X mas.  Cool


Fred
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KolinP
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2012, 07:27:28 PM »


(....) It is the inability (on my Officejet) to turn off the printer's influence on the outcome. (....)
Ah! Drat! Yes ... that's a rather critical point that I missed!!!  I was being carried away with my optimism earlier!!

In my 8600's "Customize Your Printer" dialogue, if I click the tantalizing tab called "Color Management"  it simply brings up Windows 7's Color Management dialogue, which of course isn't what I/we want?  Sighhhhh ...!

(....) So I would advise you to relax, enjoy the printer, and worry about technical perfection until your wife buys you a nice Photo printer for X mas.  Cool
Fred
A lovely idea  Smiley  (though she'd need to do that somewhat indirectly ... not to drift off topic ...  Grin )

Thanks Fred for your sage reality check on my 8600's colour limitations.
Colin P.
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