Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

I'm new to this forum and QImage. I need some help.
I've been using my Epson 1410 now for about 18 months and all has been well. However something went astray and I needed to start over with colour management. As a part of that process I decided to try QImage. But now I need some guidance as I'm getting 'strange' results with my prints.

I shoot with a Nikon D7000. RAW. sRGB colour space.
I use Aftershot Pro again with sRGB colour space.
I then use PSPx4 for editing. I use 16 bit tifs. I have colour space as sRGB and Colour Managment turned OFF.
Then I open those 16 bit tifs in QImage.
I have the following settings --
Epson 1410 with Best Photo selected.
      Paper type selected.
      Paper size selected.
      RPM selected.
      High Speed OFF.
      Colour Control. (I used ICM in the past but I'm hoping QImage will now do the work).

in QImage I have --
     Mntr ICC- sRGB Display Profile Enabled with display hardware -----
     Prtr ICC OFF.

Now I'm getting prints that are too dark and not matching my monitor. Close but not as close as they were before.
I'm also having a resize issue. My A4s are being cropped on the left and right margins with landscape selected and fit to page selected.

I hope I've made my self clear!! I work on a comupter that is off line so getting help is an issue.

Could someone please tell me if I'm on the right track or is there a flaw in my set up.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Hi Bruce and welcome.
By the time the folks on this forum are done with you, you will be spitting out beautiful prints!

There is so much in doubt in your stayement of flow, that I'm afraid my approach is to start over.
Maybe others who use the Aftershot will come in and offer, but for me this is simple to reset!

Let's start from the RAW. Raw images have no color space. When they are made visible by software, you may then select the color space you wish to work in.
Here's what I suggest. You have turned off Color management in Qimage, and let the printer run with questionably processed data.
So let's start!
1) Open Qimage Ultimate and click folders, and open the folder in which you placed the raw images from your memory card.
2) Give QU a chance to build thumbs and cache files, you will see all the thumbs looking pretty good already. Qimage has for the most part properly processed your raw images. You can tweak using REFINE, and further Edit (Tone Targeted Sharpening, Cropping, contrast, saturation, Color adjusting etc.) in the editor.

We are focusing right now on your prints, so we will stay with that for the moment.

3)
I have attached a screen snap of the Layout tab. You can see it's clear of any check marks.... make yours look like that!  Snap 054

Next is a screen snap of the Qimage Job properties screen. Make yours look like that! Notice the printer profile located in the Prtr ICC box. That is for Epson Prem Glossy.
If you don't have that, use the proper profile from the profile pack that was installed with your driver. If you have Epson Luster, use the Luster,,, etc.
If you don't have Epson paper, we have a different approach, but for now, let's stay on track!  Snap 055

The next screen snap shows the driver/ called Print Page setup in Qimage. This shows what you set. Paper type, quality (RPM), and Color management in the printer, set to OFF. Snap 056
See the checkmark in OFF!

Back to the main screen of Qimage, set the print size to Fit to Page, click on the GREEN + sign on your nicest thumb nail, and the image is ready to make a test print.
Notice! You are printing from the RAW image. No need to make all sorts of conversions and changes. By default, the raw image will be in Adobe RGB color space.
That is a wider color gamut than RGB, and will offer more color latitude.

At this point I need to stop; see if what I laid out is clear to you; find out from you if you have, and can use Epson paper; if you tried a test print after setting everything mentioned above as per the screen snaps, and what were the results?

If you do not have Epson paper, then we have a simple print fix for that scenario too.
I strongly recommend that you watch some of the videos at http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/learn.htm

I apologize for taking you off the ::


which you are probably used to using, but there are so many questions to go through in your settings, that we have to start with Qimage.
Once we get you happy with your prints, we can move into other areas.

Fred

Thanks Fred A.

A couple of coments.

I know that RAWs doesn't have a colour space. Maybe I wrote that bit wrong! I can't put RAWs through QImage as I need to work on them first and convert them to tifs for my work. Thus the work flow from Aftershot Pro to PSPx4. (I've use PSP for many years and always worked with colour managment OFF. Never had these issues before). Aftershot saves the tifs in sRGB colour format. I'll follow you advice but start with a tif out of PSPx4. Failing that I'll test with a RAW and see what happens.

I'll follow up as soon as I get a chance. Keep in mind I have a work flow that is already established and I'm just looking at QImage to do the printing and no editing. Not having my work computer online, and in a diffenet location, makes it difficult to use the help. Why do software companies think everyone is on line?
You can see my work on my web site. It may give you an idea of what I'm tyring to achieve. My clients are looking for the correct colour so you can see how important it is to me. cre8ivephotography.com

Regards
Bruce

Bruce,

Do you use printer profiles?
As I mentioned, I am trying to sort out the printing with you.
My steering you through Qimage (as long as you say you bought it) was to narrow down the possible errors from conversions from raw to tiff and 16 bit and RBG.... and to start with a known quantity.
If we can get a good print using my outlined method, then we know all is well with the printer nozzles and your color flow.
In your scenario, you mentioned improper print location on the paper, chopped off parts and bad color.

I gather you don't use color printer profiles??

It's fine if you want to print a TIF, but you still need to set the rest up correctly.

If you don't use any color printer profile, then set Qimage to LET PRINTER MANAGE COLOR (Click on the black down arrow to the right of the PRTR ICC line in Job Properties.
Select Let printer manage color.
Next go back into the driver (Page Setup) and uncheck NO COLOR ADJUSTMENT, and select ICM.

Please make a test print.(No print Previews or Softproof allowed)

Good luck
Fred

Hi Fred A.

I've hit a problem!! I just realised that I was using the Pro version of QImage. (I downloaded the trail). So I went on line and downloaded the trial version of Ultimate so that I could use your RAW path. Now the trial version won't allow me to use it. I get a message that my trial version has run out. You see about 12 months ago I had a quick look at QImage and then never followed through with a purchase. (I travel for 6-8 months of the year so I'm not at home to use my set up).

So back to square one.

I do use printer and paper profiles. I like Ilford paper as well as Epson Premium Gloss. I have those profiles installed.

Everything has been working well for me until just recently when the prints started to get 'strange' colour casts. (Black and whites weren't black and white. I now have them back again. It's just a colour issue). I've done head cleaning etc. I'm nearly back to where I started but in reading all the great reveiws on QImage I thought I would give it another try. But I'm not inclined to buy the program just yet if it's not the answer to better prints. If I can jump this one last hurdle on the darkness issue then I'll be only to happy to pay for the Ultimate version.

I appreciate your help and hope I can work with the Pro version. I did 2 prints this morning using your settings but with a tif. Excellent prints, only still a bit on the dark side. My wife thinks I'm nuts and can't see that much different. But as I said if you look at my web site my clients tend to want the colours spot on! (I think maybe it's more a gamut issue with some of my gradiants). The print location seems to be solve by taking any photos out of the print que and then making the changes before reloading a photo.

RegardsBruce

Just an update. (Epson should pay me for all the paper I'm using!!).

I've just about got it figured out now. (I'm using the Pro trial version of QImage). Thanks to lots of help on this forum and online reading.

My only grizzle now is the darkness. If I could get the prints a few shades lighter then all will be well with regular printing. I still think I have an issue with gamut on my gradients but that's always been a problem.

Thanks

Regards

Bruce,
Printing with the correct settings in the driver is most important.
If you printed from any color managed program you would still need the proper settings.

Now you said: "  Paper type selected.
      Paper size selected.
      RPM selected.
      High Speed OFF.
      Colour Control. (I used ICM in the past but I'm hoping QImage will now do the work)."

Your latest post says that you use Epson and Ilford paper and profiles.
Therefore that above (Driver set to Color Controls) does not work cleanly with a commercially made profile.
If you use a profile, then you set to NO COLOR ADJUSTMENT.

Prints too dark.
If the color is good but prints too dark, you may have your monitor set too bright, and either expect that, or adjusted the image darker because of that.

Unless you have a very expensive and extensive color  monitor profiling tool, you need to set the brightness and contrast down (close w to what you see in a profiled print which you should make again with the proper driver settings (COLOR OFF)) and then profile the color monitor again using the lowered brightness and contrast settings.

The assumption is that Epson and Ilford know what they are doing when they make a profile for their own paper, and the print (with all the recommended settings correct (paper choice, quality, No Color Adjustment, even the RPM setting has a special profile from Epson) ).
Epson has a profile for RPM and a different one for Best Photo.
After you make a test print and set the brightness and contrast on the monitor to a reasonable approximation, redo the monitor profile.

I think you should be fine from that point.


Just a side by side A/B match of prints from Qimage Ultimate and any other software, even the very expensive one, will be obvious which print came from which; QU or Brand X.
So happy that your wife is offering her unbiased help.
My wife earned the name Eagle Eye because she could see things like:   " That's not the right color. My blouse is much redder. Your print has it on the orange side."
So we eventually went into Qimage and got a camera profile that matches my camera, and Viola, her blouse shifted back toward the redder side.
 :'(  She's always right!

Hope all goes well

Fred

Hi Bruce,
Some observations from you posts which I hope will help - at the risk of repeating what Fred has already said.
This implies you have not calibrated you monitor with a colorimeter or spectro' device. Although sRGB is a reasonable approximation for some monitors, it's nowhere near a proper calibration with a suitable device.
Regarding colour accuracy, if you are using Ilford or Epson paper with their own profiles, prints should come out very close to the true colours of the image. You must make sure you have the correct profile for the paper & settings as Fred has indicated. Last year (or earlier) Ilford revised their "Smooth" Pearl & Gloss papers and provided new profiles, another point to watch.
If the printed image looks different from the monitor, then the monitor calibration is likely to be a problem.
Regarding The most common cause of dark prints is having a monitor set too bright. You adjust the image to the monitor appearance and make it darker so the print comes out too dark.
Fred suggested an empirical method by adjusting the brightness to match the print(s). If you have a calibration device, most  offer, in their advanced mode, a means of setting the brightness (luminance). For example, my Eye One 2 Display software recommends 120 candles per M squared for an LCD monitor. I found this to work well but tweaks can be made using differernt values.I prefer this to relying on my visual comparison print to screen.
I note you are using Corel Aftershot Pro. I have the latest Corel Paintshop Pro for occasional editing so know how the Corel raw conversion works, not very well in my opinion!  :o
QU raw processing knock spots off Corel.
I note too you are working with sRGB and 16 bit images - that somehow does not match up, a relatively small colour gamut with a large pixel depth. Adobe RGB would be better whatever. Are you really sure you need 16 bit images? Printers work with 8 bits and how many bits does your monitor use? 16 bits are ok if you are doing extensive editing but is that editing required due to a poor raw conversion in the first place?
I do note from your web site that the images are very much "edited" - very dramatic!
With good colour management you should not need to edit images to get the print right - expect th esceen and print to be very close - bearing in mind the limitations of a print on paper.
Sorry if I sound a little negative but read Mike Chaney's articles here:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/september-2009-digital-photography-reality-check-308/
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/december-2010-do-you-have-a-6-bit-lcd-monitor/

Give my regards to Sydney next time you are there, my daughter lives there.  ;)
Terry



 

Thanks guys.

As I said I'm 'almost' happy! ???

Just to recap where I'm up to. Just yell if you seee a problem. I've been changing my setting as per your suggestions to get to the following point.

Use a Nikon D7000. Shoot in RAW.
Monitor is a Dell 2209WA. (Note I have been using this combination now for a year or two with out issues. I recently had a printer issue that involved head cleaning and nozzle work. During that period something went amiss).
Use Aftershot Pro. (Aftershot Pro is a full on RAW converter. Not A poor Corel product. Was Bibble 5 until recently when Corel purchased it and renamed it). I work in sRBG colour space and export as 16 bit tifs.
Use PSPx4. Work in 16 bit colour space. Colour management off. (Corels colour managment is a basket case as is their RAW). Actually I start with 16 bit tifs and work in PSPImage format. That allows layers etc. You'll noitice from my web site that I do a lot of editing. The third gallery is just a 'play pen'! I use 16 bit because I need to get gradients right. Smooth paint job on the cars area a must and 16 bits gives me the best results. I do have gamut issues but that's a whole nuther story.
Printer is an Epson 1410. Settings are - Best photo. (Which turns on RPM).
At the moment I'm only using Epson Premium Glossy so that is selected. Select paper size. High Speed is OFF. Colour Management is OFF.
Qimage is set as follows.
Mntr ICC : Calibrated Monitor Profile. (I have brightness way down low and contrast adjusted accordingly. I work in a dark studio so that my monitor is in a constant environment).
Prtr ICC : SP1400 1410 Epson PGPP (P).

With the above set up I'm almost right. As I said yell if you see a problem. Otherwise I'll stick with this settup for the time being. My only issue is the dark prints. I can get around this by saving my PSP file as a tif and adjusting it accordingly after a test print.

Thanks for your help. I'll give the system a work out over the next few days then see what happens. I'm about to go overseas for 5 months so my work will be put on hold for a while.

Regards

Another question if I may!

So far I'm very happy with my results. Not 100% but then comparing a back lit monitor to a reflective print will always be subjective.

I have rather a lot of paper on hand. Epson, Ilford and Canon. My question is, "Does anyone know where I can get a profile for my Epson 1410 for the various Canon papers"? I've searched the web but can't find any trace of Canon profiles. Do they even publish/make them? I'm not interested in a custom profile. So far I've use Epson profile and they are rather close but i would likethem closer if possible.

Thanks.

Hi Bruce,
Profiles for your Epson printer, printing on Canon paper will require the profiles to be custom made for you.
You can Google up (for example) Cathy's profiles, and she will make them for you, or better and cheaper, if you have a little bit of time to learn it, Profile Prism will allow you to make your own.
This us an excellent choice which will save you money, and make your own for as many paper types as you have.
The author of Profile Prism is the same man that authored Qimage, and you know you can help right here if you need it.

Fred