Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

When printing from my PC to my Epson 9880 the prints always come out too dark - way darker than they look on my monitor (HP 2207 22" flat screen) If I adjust blending mode to screen 25 - 100% in Photo Shop then they look great.  Colors match perfectly as far as I can see.  I recalibrate my monitor every two weeks.  I waste a lot of time saving several small versions at different screen mode % before I can run the final print. I only use Epson papers and use the profiles that came with my printer.

So is this a calibration/profile issue or is there a setting on my monitor that I should adjust - brightness perhaps?  Any suggestions with this would be greatly appreciated - as well as a better method to produce proof strips before I print.  A year ago or so I saw an ad for some software that did this, but now it seems that the company no longer exists.

Thanks from the newbie!

Hi again,
You may be in the wrong area (PP is a specific software package for making printer, camera etc.profiles but not to worry Mike can move this if required to Qimage or General.
It's not clear if you are talking about printing from Qimage, please clarify. Are you having the same problem printing through Qimage and PS? If that is the case, then it may well be a calibration issue.

It maybe your monitor is set too bright, does the calibration software allow you to set the luminance value, the norm for an LCD is 120 cd/m2 but some I know use lower values to get a better screen to print correlation. A manual approach would be to set the brightness to match the print appearance and recalibrate without changing the monitor brightness.

Another trick which I have used, still use, when prints are consistently dark wrt the monitor is to make use of the Qimage Print Filter. Make a filter to correct the dark print using Levels, Fill or a Curve, and apply that to all your prints with Qimage. NB. Different filters may be needed for different papers. You don't see any effect on the screen, just on the print. A little trial & error is required but once set, that's it. If you are new to Qimage, filters are non-destructive, the original image is not altered.
Since buying a better quality monitor, my need to use a print filter to lighten prints has diminished  :)
Hope that helps in some way, I'm sure others will have opinions on what to do too.
Terry.

Welcome to the forum...

I have to agree with Terry to about 90%. :-)

If you are using the Epson profiles provided by Epson for the 9880, and matching the named profile to the named paper, and have the driver set to No Color Management, that print should be as close to the image as possible.
I show at least 20 or more paper profiles for that printer... So for example, if you are using PGPP Epsons Premium Glossy paper, the profile is called Pro 9800 7800 PGPP.icm
If all that is correct, then we go to the monitor. We must believe that the Epson profile along with instructed driver settings will produce the right print.
So how can we be wrong?
If the monitor is too bright, and the image looks OK/bright, then you will leave it unadjusted. If the monitor's brightness were toned down, and you saw the screen image as too dark, you might adjust the image lighter and brighter, and that will affect the print.
I suggest, MHO, that you may be profiling the colors just fine, but you should redo after setting the brightness down close to the print brightness.
Those LCD monitors are beauties, but need to be tamed.
Oh, the 10%.... I don't do print filters to lighten. Rather trust in setting the monitor to suit me.
Fred   ;D :D ;D :D

Fred

Oh, thank you both for your "bright" ideas.  :D

Terry, yes my prints are too dark regardless what program I am printing from.  I have a print out of all 9880 profiles (all 49)  showing the names of the matching media, and as an extra precaution I always read the paper work that is included with any new paper I purchase.  So I am pretty confident that I have the profiles matched properly. 

Just before logging in to the forum I checked the settings on my calibration unit - it has several options i.e., photo editing & web browsing, video, gaming, warmer/cooler w/different levels of contrast for each.  This is an inexpensive Pantone Huey system, and although I don't see any options for setting numeric values, from various sources tha I have read lately they say the unit does an adequate job.  I am going to set the options noted above to a much lower (darker) setting and see if adjusting my images accordingly will correct the difference. 

That sounds like a very good possibility - I will let you know. 

Thanks so much to both of you!
Rhonda

 :) I decreased the brightness on my monitor as well as changed the setting for the Huey preferences and at least for this one sepia tone print I just ran it came out perfectly. What a relief to have resolved both of these on-going issues.

Thanks!!

Fred knows that with my engineering/quality control background I like to see the numbers and work to those  ::)
However, Fred's pragmatic approach sounds fine, especially with the Huey. You may have to tweak the monitor now and again depending on it's stability.
Terry.

His numbers are always in Metric just to confuse me!!
 :D
To me, the object is to be able to look at one's monitor, and to get very close..... close to what will appear on the print with regard to it all.
I expect the colors and the contrast and brightness to print as I saw it on the monitor.
I see no way (although I am the first to admit to mathematical disability) to numerically coordinate/calculate the brightness of an image on screen compared to the same brightness of the same image on paper.
Until I learn more, my eyeball will have to work for me.  ::) :'(

Fred

I find that I cannot easily do this reliably so having the monitor at a set value gives consistency. Eyeballing a print does have it's difficulties when comparing to  monitor, the ambient light can vary a great deal so there's no real control of that. It's also very subjective.
My problems have not been to do with dark-all-over prints but just lacking a bit of shadow detail, so making the monitor darker did not solve the problem. A simple print "Fill" filter worked very nicely; it could be this is more to do with the custom profiles I have although Epson and Ilford's own are the same.
One thing that has helped to remove the need for a print filter, other than having a better monitor, is that I've had to train my eye to make images "lighter" on screen. So again it's human perception coming into the equation. When I look back on old images on my new monitor, they now look dark. Is that the monitor or my re-trained perception  ???

My understanding is that the correct way to do this is to use a proper viewing booth with lighting conditions that match the monitor. Many calibration devices (Eye One 2) allow you to check the ambient light conditions wrt to luminance and thus you can get a numerically based match.
In fact, I'm considering buying one of those GrafLite's as an inexpensive alternative to a booth. I have to print during long Winter evenings so comparing print colour and brightness is not reliable in normal household conditions.
Having said all that, if eyeballing works for you, and others see your prints as good, then that's ok. "Sans eyes" obviously does not apply to you  ;D

Terry-

I have the GMB Eye One Pro.  Forget ambient light unless you have no windows and always have the light on.  Drove me nuts until I profiled without ambient (easy Mode).

I don't use a booth.  For viewing I have a Tensor FS-124 right on the table.  Can post a pic if you'd like.  Small footprint and only comes on when you flip the bulb open.  Everyone talks about the Ott light (German??), but the Ott is $75; this is $42.  Uses the SAME bulb!! Both made by Philips I believe.  I bought the kit at a craft store but waited until they had a "40% off any one item sale."  Your mileage may vary.

Seth
I am no pro, but if you don't mind. Would you post a pic of what you use .. Please
I do use an Ott lite to look at my photo.

Thanks
Ya Me

I have been an Epson user for many years including the 2200 since it was introduced and now the Epson 2880.  The problem is not with your monitor calibration.  The Epson printers do print darker than the screen.  The answer is to adjust the Color Density.  Go to Printer Setup in Qimage, then properties/paper config/ color density.  Adjust the color density so that the print matches the monitor.  I find I have to use -5.  Others have used as much as -12. 

If you change the monitor settings to match your printer, others looking at your images on their monitors will not see the "correct" image.

Howard

It could be if the luminance value cannot be set by the calibration software, as appears the case with a Huey device & software.

Unfortunately not all drivers have this feature, Epson or other makes probably. We are not all owners of the more sophisticated printers  :o That's where using a Print Filter come in.

That's why working to a known value of luminance is a good thing. Trouble is, what is a truly "standard"  value, 120Cd/M2 is recommended for an LCD monitor but is it the standard?
Terry.

Seth, I Googled that and it looks almost identical to the GrafLite I can get I the UK, not as cheap though  :(
Terry.
Edit, just added a picture of the GrafLite - attached. T

Terry my Ott-lite looks just like that

Ya Me

I was not addressing the subject in general.  This is a known problem for Epson printers and a way to handle it while not changing anything to throw off a properly calibrated monitor.

Howard

Thaks Howard, that sounds like another good idea, I will look for those settings tonight when I get time to do run more prints.  If I make these adjustments, then of course I will have to reset my monitor to where it was before.  Even before adjusting the brightness I have had problems with some of the older CRT monitors being too dark to display my images properly - so that could be a real issue. 

Thanks for all of you suggestions, I will do some experimenting over the weekend.

Rhonda

Yep, same as the Tensor.  Mine doesn't have the cutesy handle on top but  I don't carry it.  I did glue an L shaped piece of plastic to the front so I can just pop it open with one hand.

GREAT little tool though, and I find it to be pretty spot on whether or not the paper has OBAs.

Let's just say we agree to disagree.
If that was a known Epson problem that the Epsons print too dark,
1) Mine doesn't, but a company, perhaps the largest printer manufacturer and sales portion in the world, like Epson would easily correct the discrepancy by issuing a revised print driver, or revised print profiles, etc.

2) I haven't used anything other than a Spyder type monitor profiling tool, but it is quite clear that profiling is done (for accurate color) after you have set the brightness and contrast.
The instructions do say to turn them up to 100%
That is where the problem lies for me. I think they just left that instruction in there left over from the CRT profiler.
I set the contrast and brightness to 50% and even closer to a test print, and THEN, I profile the colors.
Now I have a proper monitor profile.
I never take the word of a subjectively made monitor profile over a commercially made printer profile, and blame the difference on the printer.

Sorry if we fervently disagree, but just because a few disgruntled people who agree that their prints are too dark does not make a "known issue"

I am one of the gruntled people.

 8) :o ;D ;D ;D

Hi Rhonda,
I hope you have some success  ;)

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but I'm still thinking there's a monitor calibration issue here.
You said you are using and Epson printer with their inks(?) papers and profiles, and, presumably their recommended driver settings for the particular profile, which, I'm sure will not include colour density. I cannot believe that Epson would produce profiles that gave completely unsatisfactory results on any printer.

The problem then is how? The Huey will not allow you to set any known luminance values, it's all description with no numbers.
Again sorry to put a dampener on the Huey, but I looked up some comments on my local supplier's web site - they sell all types of calibration kit including the Huey.
"The Huey is a low cost monitor calibration solution and lacks the advanced features of the better systems."
"If you know what colour temperatures are, then you know a bit about colour management and we'd probably say Huey is not the right product for you as you don't get those choices in the software."
about the Pro version:
" ...does have some of the features that the basic Huey lacks, but it still lags behind the Spyder and EyeOne Display systems in terms of colour accuracy."

Your playing around with other settings at the weekend may produce better results but will you get consistent results over a range of images and papers?
The extra cost of a better calibration device would be well spent.
Whatever, have a good one  8)
Terry.

The Eye One Display 2 software (advanced mode) asks you to set a luminance value which you later adjust with the monitor brightness control; mine is 120Cd/M2 and the control is at about 25%
Like Fred's it also says set contrast to 100% but I don't and leave it at the "native" value of 50%. At 100%, the results on the final calibration results screen and validation are not as good with the high contrast value.
BTW. I think the 120Cd/M2 value would be the one used for an LCD if the "easy" mode calibration was used.
Terry.

Hi Fred-

Actually it is an issue--both in QI and PS.  Using standard Epson profiles with their paper do the same to me (or did).  In QI I created a filter to add +1 Brightness, +3 Gamma and +3 Contrast that I applied before printing.  That was on a R2400.  Since creating my own profiles that has gone away.  Both in QI and PS.  

Linearizing the printers to factory settings with Colorbase 2 gives a better starting point for profiling.

As to monitor profiling, I don't know if you have a Spyder or Spyder2.  They should have quit saying that by now.  You're right.  I think it is a CRT carry over.

GMB/Xrite says you can do so if you want but suggests you just choose Native as the color temperature and proceed with calibrating.  I have tried both and find the Native gives the most accurate profile.  LCDs don't need all that crank up as you have stated.  The EyeOne sets my monitor brightness down from maximum.

Awwww, we posted at the same time.  Yep, it did just as you say in Easy mode.

I guess one of two things is going on here.  Either they are as smart as we are; or, we are as smart as they are   ;D ;D.  I vote for the later. ::)

Well guys, not to beat a dead horse here ...... but, I realize that my little Huey is not the first choice of professionals like yourselves.  I knew that when I purchased it, but did read several reviews and articles (one from PhotoShop) that lead me to believe that it would be an adequate system for me.  In my part time status, all I really need is to be able to print what I see on my monitor without making multiple sample prints at different lighting variations.  I do not print for other photographers, nor do I print Giclees for the original artist; either of these I realize would require exact color matching.  Don't misunderstand  - I do want and appreciate your advice, I just may not jump at some of the more expensive recommendations. 

Now, with that said; when I purchased my Epson V750 scanner the software package included a copy of X-rites EZ color calibration system (without the eye-one display tool).  Would this be worth the effort to install - or would it be no better than what I have already done?  From reading the product inserts, it refers to "Editing your printer profiles and applying them in Color Works"  This sounds to me very much like Howard was suggesting with the 'adjust density" option in the printer driver.

Thanks again, to all of you - I do appreciate and respect your input. :-\ ???

Rhonda

Try the X-Rite stuff.  Go to their site and search for an update to it.  It can be hard to navigate their site so you may have to Google the software and see what version the search finds.

Even some of their other software does limited other stuff for free in demo mode.

Any calibration is better than none at all.

cough ... I'm not  ;) I assumed that as you were using a "pro" printer (= expensive), you were a pro and the small extra cost of a Spyder or an Eye One 2 would not be a problem. Sorry I misunderstood  :-[
I would not think so. From what I can tell, it adjusts the density of ink applied via the driver - a sort of fine control of the paper type selection. I know that a profile can affect that but not in the direct way the "color density" adjustment does.

At first I couldn't see how X-rites EZ color software would be much use without the hardware. Also, I doubt if it will edit profiles that were not made with X-rite's hardware & software. However, I've just found the page that describes the software:
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=592
It's OEM only but does say So perhaps it is worth a go doing it visually :)
However doing it visually is just what Fred suggested regarding dark prints but still based on hardware (Huey) colour calibration  :o
Keep us posted on your progress  :D
Terry.

I've found some info' on this software on the X-rite pages.
the Epson version, just a few answers to problems:
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Action=support&ID=629
The details of the program, includes lots of answers to questions:
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Action=support&ID=592
Look at the "Training" link, there's videos of "how to"
The tutorial for profiling monitors says you need the hardware but there is the ability to create printer profiles with a scanner (the reason Epson give it to you I assume).
It seems to do the same job as Mike's Profile Prism.
Hope this helps some more as to whether you install that software.
Terry.

THANKS SO VERY MUCH!!  I will view the links you have posted, and go from there. :)

Rhonda 

Hi Terry-

I had to start laughing.  The small additional cost of...Eye One.  I about choked when they told me $700.  I'm like Fred with that one: another lens (well 1/3 of one).  I just KNEW when they had a rebate they were getting ready to dump it and try to outdate it.  Sure enough, now the color Munki is the push.

I guess we should feel blessed.  At least we (you know, in the Colonies ;D ;D) don't have the VAT you have. ::) ::)

We are talking monitor calibration only here, (that's all the Huey does) if you were asked to pay that price for an Eye One Display 2, they're having you on -  I know, it's the cost of the whole kit  ;)
UK price for a basic Huey is about £59, the Eye One Display 2 is about £120. No doubt the real costs in the US will be less. My point was that the £60 (~$90) difference is small compared to the cost of a 4880 printer.
They do in Oz, called sales tax  :o

I agree, that Munki looks good, I have a friend who has one.
Terry.

Okay, I thought you were talking the kit since you were talking printers and Eye One/Spyder 2/Huey in the same post.  It's with the iOne Pro but all bet it's the same as the 2.

I bought the Photo Lite kit, so I got it stuck to me for the ruler tray, software and a case that's ill-fitted.  And--it won't do CMYK!!  Extra money.

Hi Fellas, just wanted to let you know that (so far) my issue with dark prints seems to be fixed.  You all gave me several suggestions, but upon doing some test prints that I had not printed before, as long as I am printing from Qimage it looks great!  Perhaps PhotoShop was not reflecting my Huey ICC as it does within Qimage?  And I did adjust the brightness within the Huey system, such as it is.

Now, I know you guys know alot more than me about this stuff, but considering my lack of self condifidence in color management, I think I will just leave well enough alone for now.  If I should have issues in the future I will go through the process with the EZColor calibration software. Perhaps if I actually start making some real $$ from my investment I will spring for one of those fancy calibration systems you spoke of. ;)

Until then, thanks again for all your help, and I'm sure I'll be around.

BTW - Mike, I LOVE QImage!  I purchased GF5 and upgraded to GF6 Professional Edition before I found your software and I wish I had saved my money!!  I've still got lots to learn to utilize its' full potential, but so far it has proven to produce as good or better enlargements than GF and MUCH simpler to work with.  Oops, I'm getting off topic now.

Have a great day all!
Rhonda