Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

I'm using Win 7 Pro 64bit and trying to profile ink/paper for my older Epson R-1800.  I just bought an Epson V600 scanner.  I scanned the target 40 using "no color controls" on the scanner.  The Profile Prism seemed to run like it was supposed to (see attached screen shots) and created a good profile for the scanner acording to the results.  I have printed the target and scanned it in with the scanner by using the standard No color managements settings and tried with or without the scanner profile.  I have attached the screen shots of the profile process results screen using the scanner profile to scan the images.  I have also included a screen shot of the print screen of the printer output.  Do you have any suggestions on how to produce a successful profile?  I have a lot of time in this so far with no good results yet.  The data I included are of my best results so far.  There were some very bad profiles created also.  I'm kind of stuck at this point



(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-FRh7KKp/0/M/i-FRh7KKp-M.jpg)

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-bwMmmcg/0/M/i-bwMmmcg-M.jpg)

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-gVbVk3D/0/M/i-gVbVk3D-M.jpg)

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-P4sTjwK/0/M/i-P4sTjwK-M.jpg)

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-q5gCbvD/0/M/i-q5gCbvD-M.jpg)

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-HTmhthn/0/M/i-HTmhthn-M.jpg)

Print screen of the printing attempt.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I'm not sure what the 'print screen of the printing attempt' actually shows. It could be it shows a bad screen profile. What actually does it print to the paper, too dark, too light, whatever? How do the two images compare in the profile editing window? Keep in mind that unless you have adjusted the screen white point to match the paper white, you will be unlikely to get the print to look like the screen image, and generally the print has a smaller gamut cf the screen.

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Ray,

That image is the copy of the screen showing the print preview on my monitor.  My monitor profile is good.  What this shows is a heavy color cast.  This shows approximately what the paper print looked like.  If there was only a slight inacuracy between the print and the screen view then showing you this print preview would serve no purpose.  The heavy color cast is very obvious and printing it would be a waste of paper.

I have printed this image prior to this and it did look very close to the print preview.  I'm not depending the print preview completely to make my evaluation.  I just included it to show what is happening when I use the profile I created.  I should have included that information, sorry,

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

In my early version of pp, there is a profile editing screen. You can fine tune the profile in there. If you have that facility in your version, do the two images look different? If they look the same, but your actual print is not good, chances are you've the wrong settings in the driver when you make the print. If they look different, and it is a colour cast in the profile, it may be easiest to correct the profile in there. I've never bothered profiling the scanner, fwiw.

Best wishes,

Ray

Well Ray, you got me thinking and I ran a few more tests.  I pulled up the profile in the editor to see what it looked like.  To my surprise the profile screen and printer looked almost the same.  Which is what the Prism screens told me because they looked very good during profile generation.  Ok now I brought up Photoshop CS5 and set the print up just like is Qimage with Photoshop using the PP profile and the printer setting set to no color controls.  When I printed the file the print preview looked the same as when I used Qimage, heavy color cast.

Then I tried it again, setting photoshop to allow the printer to manage the color and set the printer driver up to use the PP profile.  The print screen was almost the same as the original print, or as close as a print screen can show.  So I then tried the same with Qimage and set Qimage to allow the printer to manage the color settings.  The print preview was the same as photoshop.  The print screen looked real good.

So now I have no idea why it is working this way.  My work-around will work I just wonder why it doesn't work when Qimage uses the profile to manage the color.  Any ideas?

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I'm glad you've got it working. I've no real idea as why it does not work t'other way round, except I know that windows 7 and Adobe try to do their own thing wrt colour management, and it can be tricky turning that off. In effect, you may be getting something similar to double profiling. I guess a good search around on the web may come up with some answers. Also Mike wrote an article a while back on w7/ colour management - on this site, iirc.

Best wishes,

Ray

Never rely on a print preview from the driver, they are never colour managed.
Do the real thing, a print in your hand.
Terry

It should look pretty well the same as a PS print. I suspect you have not got the correct driver settings.
Set the driver from Qimage and make sure they are exactly the same as when you printed the target.
Check out Mike's article here:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2011-printing-the-same-colors-in-qimage-ultimate-and-photoshop/
Terry

Hi Terry,

Like I stated earlier if the print preview looks close then I will print the image to see if there is a match.  But, if the preview is as far off as the one I show in the first message printing would be a waste of paper.  It's not hard to check the preview and determine if the print will be close to right.  I waste enough paper as it is.


The printer driver is obviously the problem here.  It was not due to a settings issue.  I always selected "No Color Mangement" and checked all other settings to be sure that the driver was not set to manage any settings except for the paper size, paper type, and printing speed.  I removed the printer from the PC, downloaded new drivers and reinstalled the printer.  There was no change in the results.  The printer wants to manage the color so I guess I will have to let it.

Kevin

I'll repeat, the Preview is not colour managed so it can never be right. I have professionally made custom profiles and my print preview is always way off but the prints are near perfect. If you are getting a preview somewhere near the final colour managed print, that is pure luck.  ::)
I doubt it. If a colour managed print using a printer profile from PS looks significantly different from a colour managed print from Qimage using the same printer profile and driver, then there is something different either in the driver settings or the way that Qimage has been set. Are you using the same rendering intent, PS & Qimage?
I assume we are talking about real prints here, not preview comparisons!
Terry
PS. Did you read Mike's article - he's the expert!

I did read Mike's article and my program and driver settings settings follow his recommendations.  I used the same exact printer driver settings when I printed the target that I used when I printed the printer test.  In Qimage I set the printer to "Let printer/driver to manage color" when printing the PP target.  When I printed the printer test image I set the profile to be used by Qimage.  Here is the screen print of the set up for printing using the pp profile.  These job settings are saved under the profile so every time I choose this profile it asks if I want to load the saved settings.

(http://kcbeatty.smugmug.com/photos/i-rGQcwZF/0/M/i-rGQcwZF-M.jpg)

Hi,
That is where it's going wrong.
All colour management must be turned off in Qimage for printing targets.
If you "Recall" and choose J for Job, there's a special Job in Qimage for printing targets that sets everything in Q as it should be.
It's called {Q} printer target setup.job.
See attached screen shot for what the settings looks like.
I'm afraid you'll have to start again and print a new target.  :(
Terry

You missed this sentance:


When I printed the target I turned off all color controls in the printer driver.

I will reprint the target using the job.

No, that's why I told you about the Qimage job - the printing software needs to beset correctly too - a target is a very special case.
PP Help gives full details under Printer profile step by Step, printing target. It says: -

"Because we want to print raw data for the purpose of deriving a profile, make sure that your printing software is NOT utilizing an ICC profile for the printer. In Qimage, this only involves changing "Printer ICC" to OFF. This option is located on the lower right of the main window in Qimage."

When Qimage is set to "let driver manage color", this a form of colour management by the driver and uses a generic printer profile from Qimage. In other words, the data sent to the printer is not "raw".

Using {Q} printer target setup.job,  all is set for you to get raw data sent to the printer.

Terry

Hi KCB
let us know how you get on.
Terry

OK, we can put this thead to bed.  Profiled the 3 targets I printed yesterday and all went well.  All 3 papers print just as they are supposed to.  It just works.

Thanks for the help guys.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for letting us know  ;)
Terry zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'll flush this up as (a) I seem to have a similar problem and (b) we don't know whether the OP solved it. EDIT. Sorry I did not realise there was another page - but I still need to know how.....

I have positive messages when I prepare my profile.

If I do the Edit Profile in PP and both panels look the same.

I am using an Epson and have the same Advanced setting for ICC.

When I print Mike's test card the sweater the girl is wearing seems to be 181 082 061. It is hard to be precise as I do not have a proper colour checker and have had to scan my print in Vuescan and take the readings from there.

Qimage reads the sweater from the file as 200 80 123

I have output the file as a TIF and BreezeBrowser reads the sweater as 197 83 129.

It seems that my problem is similar to that discussed above. My profile, generated by PP, is not being read correctly as it goes from QU to the Epson.

Oddly most of the rest of the test card looks fairly OK but the girl has a distinct yellow cast to her face.

I am using Win 7.

Any suggestions chums?

Tony

For those watching this thread and hearing a deafening silence.....I have realised that I was not understanding the Edit facility in PP.

I thought that if the left panel and the right panel were the same I was being told the profile was 'correct'. I have done some reading on Edit and now realise that the objective is to get the right hand panel to match the 'bad' proof print.

That's what to do. How to do it will require a bit more understanding of colour mixing.

So much to learn.....

Tony