Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Hi

For the past several years I have been happily profiling my papers using my PC (Windows XP SP3) and my Epson 1290 printer.

I am now using a Laptop (Windows 7 Home Premium SP1) and an Epson P50 printer and am having problems getting profiles from this combination for my favourite inks and paper.  The prints are very dark and quite awful and I get better results from just using the printer driver profiles nearest to my paper type.

The main problem seems to be that there are no generic settings for non-Epson Media (such as Photo Quality Inkjet paper) that I had with the old Epson 1290 and I suspect that choosing any of the Epson brand settings won't work with non-Epson papers.

Another problem is that the software for Windows 7 for my scanner, an Epson Perfection 4990, is different to that for Windows XP and doesn't appear to allow me to use my customary settings for scans for profiling.

I have both Vuescan Professional Edition (latest version) and Qimage Professional Edition (Version 2010.210) but haven't previously used either of these applications when profiling;  I have always used Epson Scan and Photoshop CS3 for this.

Can anyone either give advice on this or point me to a link for scanning/profiling tips that might help resolve this issue.

I would also like to know where I can find the data files that are created when the "create profile" button is pressed - they use to be in the Program>Profile folder but not (apparently) in Windows 7!  I would like to delete all reference to previous profiles and start from scratch.

 :'( :'(

I would try setting the printer profile to read: Let Printer Handle color. See snaps

One shows the Color Management box and I call your attention to the little button icon toward the upper right of the box.
Place your pointer on it, and it will read; Let Printer Manage Color.
After clicking, your Job Property box should look like the second screen snap.

Set the printer driver to ICM (don't use the No Color Adjustment setting for this profile)
Choose a paper selection as close to (You didn't say what paper you were using) the type of paper you are using.
Sometimes with off brand paper, you might have to experiment.... example, just because the paper you are using is glossy, you might get a better match with a Semi Gloss selection.
You have to try.

That should give excellent printing results. Using that setting of Let Printer Manage color and the generic print profile from Qimage


As for the profiling of the paper, see if you can scan in RAW mode using Vuescan.

Fred
PS. Another thought! If this is your first encounter with an LCD type screen, it may be set too bright, and consequently, you are expecting the prints to be lighter than they come out of the printer.

Fred

Are you sure there isn't a data sheet with recommended driver settings for the paper you are using. Most decent independent papers will give the appropriate drivers settings for particular printers.
You have Vuescan, use that; it's better than most, if not all, scanner supplied software and has the ability to save settings.
Like Fred said, the usual cause of this is the monitor being too bright. You don't mention calibrating your laptop? Some calibration software, even for laptops, allows you to set a luminance value in an "advanced mode". Otherwise it's trial and error. I find on my laptop the brightness setting is course so it's ends up as a compromise - but I don't use it for photo printing.

The profiles are saved as follows, just the same as XP
C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color

I hope that is of some he;p too.
Terry
I would think the PP settings are here: C:\Program Files (x86)\Prism\Settings. That is for 64bit W7. 32bit W7 may be " ~Program Files~"

Thank you both for the input.  I shall look into the use of Vuescan rather than Epson Scan and try again.

Yes, I have profiled my Laptop (with Spyder3) but with virtually no controls available, although better than default it is not perfect.

I would have thought that one could ignore the monitor when profiling though; if the profile is good the test print should look good and print very similar to the same test print from my colour managed PC with a properly profiled CRT Monitor.  I assumed a correctly profiled monitor would only be necessary for editing images and that unedited images should print accurately.

Absolutely correct, Eric.
The reason Terry and I mention a monitor that might be too bright is due to us encountering so many folks that will darken the image before printing because it looks too light on the screen; or, an image may really be too dark, but it looks OK on the screen!
You are correct though, the monitor profile or what you see on the screen has no bearing on what comes out of the printer.

What kind of paper are you trying to profile.? Have you profiled it before for the other printer?
The other printer, the 1290, used dye ink. What sort of ink does your new printer use?   Probably one of the pigment types....
Is that paper you are trying to profile 'happy" with pigment ink?

Just some thoughts

Fred

I am using JetTek Inks (not Epson) and have been for several years now.  My experience is that they are a very close match to the Epson ones.

I use a number of different papers but for most of my output I use Kirkland Professional Gloss and Croppers Matt.  Both of these have been successfully profiled on my previous setup - PC with Windows XP SP3 and Epson 1290 (1280 in North America).

I am also using the latest edition of Vuescan Professional 64-bit Version on my Laptop but notice that the RAW output option is not available but DNG has appeared as a new option.  I cannot find any reference to these changes on any of the Hamrick site/links - RAW output is still mentioned there as an option.

It is! See screen shots attached.
You must have your scanner on and set the Input correctly to see the option in the Output tab.

Terry

Silly me.  I don't know how I missed that - I was convinced that all the options were visible when Vuescan was opened.

Today, I am using my PC with Windows XP and Vuescan 32-bit Version 9.0.75 and on this computer I can see the RAW Option when I open Vuescan without any scanners switched on.  No wonder I was mystified that it wasn't there on my Laptop - must be a Windows 7 thing!

[/quote]


I would try setting the printer profile to read: Let Printer Handle color. See snaps

One shows the Color Management box and I call your attention to the little button icon toward the upper right of the box.
Place your pointer on it, and it will read; Let Printer Manage Color.
After clicking, your Job Property box should look like the second screen snap.

Set the printer driver to ICM (don't use the No Color Adjustment setting for this profile)
Choose a paper selection as close to (You didn't say what paper you were using) the type of paper you are using.
Sometimes with off brand paper, you might have to experiment.... example, just because the paper you are using is glossy, you might get a better match with a Semi Gloss selection.
You have to try.

That should give excellent printing results. Using that setting of Let Printer Manage color and the generic print profile from Qimage


[/quote]

I usually print using this method for my snapshots but when printing my "serious" stuff on A4 size I prefer to print them through Photoshop for the extra editing controls and that is the reason I make printing profiles using Prism.

Sorry, but that is a contradiction of terms. If you must edit in PS, it is much better to print the "serious" stuff in QU. After all it is a really serious program for printing, PS is not.  :o
Terry

I would have to disagree with you.  My serious photography is edited, sharpened and sized in Photoshop at the size and ppi I require.  When printed through Photoshop nothing is changed and it is a very simple process.

This does not appear to be the case when printing through Qimage; it seems overly complex to apply my own settings and to get a print that meets my specifications.  Perhaps if I spent more time with it I might find it easier to work with but at the moment I am content to let it size and fit my snapshots and use Photoshop for my one off exhibition prints.

Hi Eric,
The words "sized in PS, at the size and ppi I require" are where you are missing the point with QU.
Because you seem to be trying to use the PS method in QU:
You are probably missing the whole point of why QU makes superior prints. Forget what you have to do in PS with sizing and resolution, QU does all that for you. All you need to do is specify a print size in inches or mm and QU looks after all the PPI stuff and applies smart print sharpening, one setting does all.
QU sends the image data to the printer at the native resolution of the printer (720ppi for your Epson set at best quality); the way it's interpolated is unique to QU and superior to anything that PS can do.
You'd better read the web site.
http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/quality.htm
http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/tech-prt.htm
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/july-2011-restless-natives/
Terry

I've had a look at the links you posted but I don't have Qimage Ultimate.

However, I don't use Photoshop tools for sharpening and sizing - I have Photoshop plug-ins for sharpening and sizing.

The QU  and Mike Chaney wisdom is to interpolate once only, in QU. It makes life much easier, one image for all sizes of print.
And as for sharpening, QU is very good too with Tone Targeted Sharpening, another unique and powerful feature.
http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/tech-tts.htm
There's a learning video about it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=xn7Ipw8IAhQ&vq=hd720

You have a world class program at a bargain price with QU, I thoroughly recommend you explore all its features.
Like you, I only print at A4 (small is beautiful  ;D) but my competition entries always get complements from judges on the print quality, even if they don't like the composition.  ::)

Terry

I finally got myself a usable profile for my first paper.  I did find the instruction sheet for the paper and used the recommended media setting but printed the original test target with Colour Controls, Epson Standard and Gamma 1.8 set in the printer driver.

I then scanned the print + target using RAW output in Vuescan and made the profile.

Printing several different types of image file using this profile produced very pleasing results and very close to my (profiled but now ageing) CRT Monitor.

Will now try another completely different paper and see how that works out.

That is not the correct setting for printing a target or for colour managed printing both must be the same). You must not let the driver interfere with the colour at all.
For an Epson driver, under colour management it should be ICM and ICC/ICM Profile set to OFF.
I'm pretty sure the PP Help tells you this. See screen shot attached, your P50 printer is likely to be similar.
If you use Qimage for printing a target, there's a pre-set JOB that can be re-called such that all the settings for QU are correct too. Another important criteria!
See screen shots attached.
Terry

... and to Echo Terry's instructions, I installed the driver for your printer, and attached a screen snap of the driver settings when creating a profile.

Fred

Thank you both for your input but I tried using NCA and it resulted in very dark images and horrible colour rendition.

The reason I printed the original test target and subsequent images using the Colour Control Setting in the printer driver was that this was stated to be an option in a document I have on tips for using Prism.  I cannot lay my hands on the origin of the document as it is a few years old now but as I stated it does work for me.

I am aware that it is not normal to use double profiling but surely all that is happening here is that the Prism profile is tweaking the Printer Driver profile to adjust it to work with non-Epson inks and paper.

I shall try another completely different paper and see what happens to that.

Hi Eric,
The danger with having Colour Controls set is that it will not be consistent because the driver may make adjustments that vary with each image.
I assume you mean the resulting print was dark; I think it was mentioned earlier that this is often because a monitor is too bright so the image gets darkened to look right on screen but the print becomes dark.
Terry

You are correct; it is Option 2 in PP Help under Printer Driver Settings.
Terry

I need to clarify something.
When we say that you should set the driver to no color adjustment, that is what you need BEFORE you print the target.
You select the correct paper, No COLOR ADJUSTMENT, the Quality setting of BEST PHOTO, and using the JOB preset for printing a target, make a target print.
This should be at ORIGINAL SIZE. The print should be 7.92 x 5.77 inches.

Using NO COLOR ADJUSTMENT is exactly what it means. It tells the driver, "Don't mess with the color. My profile is handling it. Don't mess with my color. I don't need double profiling"

Too dark? 
What is too dark. The final print or the target?
PP takes care of the target as long as you tell it my Target image was RAW.

If you did all of the above correctly, and you get a dark print, time to see what the monitor is showing you, and to double check, make a print using either Let Printer manage color as I outlined days ago, or make a print on Epson paper with their profile and see if the same image prints too dark.

Fred

Make your Profile.

NOW, when you make your print using the new profile, you *MUST* set the driver exactly the same way.
Same paper choice, sane print quality, NO COLOR ADJUSTMENT, and the profile must be set in the correct place in Qimage: at the blue ball marked PRTR ICC in Job properties.

I need to clarify that you set No Color Adjustment both times.

Let us know,,,

Fred

I made the original profile on my PC with a profiled CRT Monitor using the NCM settings in the printer Driver and the test print looked OK but when I used the profile the resulting print was very dark.

I then made a new profile using Color Controls, Epson Standard, Gamma 1.8 set both for the test print and subsequent prints using the new profile.  I printed four different images through Photoshop using this profile - a high key portrait taken with a Mamiya RZ and scanned with my Epson 4990, a snapshot of two persons indoors using a Canon Ixus 40 and flash, a Landscape taken with a Pentax Spotmatic and scanned using my Nikon Coolscan LS40 and a close up of some Bluebells taken with a Fuji Finepix S2 Pro.  All of these printed extremely well.

Today I copied and installed the profile on the Laptop and did the same four prints.  Although they looked slighty different on the screen the resulting prints are identical.

The images that I used to test print the profile couldn't have been more diverse and yet they all printed to a close match to the monitor.

Well, I have just used my Laptop to make a profile for another paper I use - Croppers Photo Matt.  I used the same settings as before but set Epson Matt as the media setting.

Printing the same four photos as before the sheet of four on the Kirkland Glossy were a very, very close match to the same sheet of four printed on the Croppers Matt.  The colours match almost perfectly and any difference in appearance being due to the different surface finish.

The tip on this forum about using Vuescan and performing a RAW scan of the target/test print seems to have worked admirably.

One thing I have noticed is that I have to watch the printer driver settings each time because despite saving my preferred settings it keeps reverting to other settings probably to match the Epson Media setting.

Eric,
This is in PS I assume?
We'll say again, use QU for all printing.
1. It remembers your last driver settings (when set from within QU)
2. You can save print set ups, everything you need, driver settings, paper size, profile, etc.
See attached screen shot which shows some of my list.
Terry

[/quote}
This is in PS I assume?
We'll say again, use QU for all printing.
1. It remembers your last driver settings (when set from within QU)
2. You can save print set ups, everything you need, driver settings, paper size, profile, etc.
See attached screen shot which shows some of my list.
Terry
[/quote]

I never did go very deeply into the workings of Qimage.  I seem to recall that I originally purchased it many years ago as a means of converting my RAW Files rather than as a printing application.

I certainly found it great for producing my album snaps (four to an A4 Sheet, or 8 to an A3) but now have them printed at a lab which is much cheaper and they have a greater life expectancy than inkjet prints on my printer.

I shall have another look at using Qimage for my other output and compare the results.