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Author Topic: Colour Management Recommendations, Please!  (Read 12855 times)
Roger1122
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« on: February 10, 2012, 06:58:17 AM »

I tested the trial version of Qimage recently and bought it the day before yesterday. Most of yesterday I spent trying it out. Very happy with the results. But I have a question about best procedures in colour management. Just before getting Qimage I profiled my display and printer/paper combination using DataColor Spyder3 devices. I produce images from my camera either directly (as JPEGs) in Adobe RGB colour space or indirectly from RAW to TIFF via DXO, and convert them to sRGB for upload to the web. Until now I have always printed from PhotoShop, but from now on I intend to use Qimage.

My question is, when working in PS should I convert my image files to my monitor colour space or leave them in Adobe RGB? And is there anything I need to be careful about in switching over to Qimage? I am quite new to colour management and am still feeling my way. I can't see any great differences in the prints working in either colour space, but already I am beginning to be aware of various subtle differences, so obviously some kind of learning process is going on. Would be grateful for any pointers to issues I need to be aware of particularly any "gotchas." Suggestions for a standard workflow would also be helpful.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 09:40:09 AM »

Hi Roger,
Welcome to the forum.
Quote
My question is, when working in PS should I convert my image files to my monitor colour space or leave them in Adobe RGB?
Leave your images in Adobe RGB. QU is fully colour management aware so will convert to the monitor colour space for viewing and the printer colour space for printing.
The image does need to have the profile embedded. I think PS can just "tag" an image which QU will not recognise so make sure PS is set to embed the profile. Jpeg's from camera should be ok as QU will read the Exif data for sRGB or Adobe RGB.
You can check what QU is seeing as the image profile by hovering you mouse over a thumbnail and reading the data at the bottom of the main screen in the "Exif Hot Bar". You can check if a profile is embedded by right mouse button over a thumb and select Display Image Info.
I should say that embedding a profile in an image is the "correct" way of communicating its colour space.
If you have converted an image to a particular colour space and not embedded, QU will assume the default of sRGB. However, by using the image editor which uses non-destructive filters, it is possible to override a colour space and assign the correct profile.

In terms of work flow, you may want to consider QU as your first port of call. It can process raw files so you can print from them directly. The raw refine process and interface is very simple and  "smart" to use. QU has an excellent image editor with some unique features like tone targeted sharpening. There's no need to convert to use the QU editor but if you have some more elaborate editing to do, it's easy to convert to tif and send to another editor from QU. The other advantage of using QU first is that it has FlashPipe built in for downloading from your camera flashcard. Folder creation, image re-naming and multiple destinations are jut a few of its capabilities.
Terry
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Fred A
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 10:44:43 AM »

Quote
In terms of work flow, you may want to consider QU as your first port of call. It can process raw files so you can print from them directly. The raw refine process and interface is very simple and  "smart" to use. QU has an excellent image editor with some unique features like tone targeted sharpening. There's no need to convert to use the QU editor but if you have some more elaborate editing to do, it's easy to convert to tif and send to another editor from QU. The other advantage of using QU first is that it has FlashPipe built in for downloading from your camera flashcard. Folder creation, image re-naming and multiple destinations are jut a few of its capabilities.

Hi Roger, and a double welcome.
If I may, Terry did a great job, and I can add a few items that will ease your transition to Qimage Ultimate.
If you were to let QU read your card and download to a folder that you name, (Example: I make C:\Pics\Terry Smiling. (There were only a few shots on the card))
Qimage would go directly to the new folder, and the thumbs would appear before your eyes.

If you have the EDIT OPTIONS RAW set correctly, Qimage Ultimate has processed the images for you, but allowing you to open refine and tweak the raws.
We can cover the Raw tweaks and the Edit options by advising you to get familiar with some of the videos at http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/learn.htm

But your focus is color management, so you see in the Job Properties box, lower right, some blue balls.
Click on the one for Prtr ICC and you can click Browse, and find "YOUR" profile.
OK yourself back out, and you now see your correct profile for your paper  in the box next to the Blue Ball.
(Same goes for MNTR ICC)
Next open Page setup, upper right corner, left button, and set your paper, quality, and Printer to No Color Management.
After all is set correctly, make a print.... if it's OK, Now go to FILE, top left, and click SAVE.
When the box opens, Click The "P" button for Printer, and give your setup a name.  
EPSON R 1800 Prem Luster A3
Save.

Now anytime you want to use Luster paper, no more fiddling. Click File, RECALL, click the "P" button, select the EPSON R 1800 Prem Luster A3 from the list, and OPEN!
Bingo! Everything is set, ready to print!
You can make another for 8 x 10 or 5 x 7. Others for Glossy paper, Others for Roll paper with various sizes that you like.
If you have two printers, Double Bingo!!
Save setups for your Canon 9000 Pro M II.
QU will switch back and forth in the blink of an eye.

Hope some of this helps!!
Which printer do you use?

Enjoy!!

Fred
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 11:15:21 AM by Fred A » Logged
rayw
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 04:49:13 PM »

Hi Roger,

I would suggest you study the following wrt colour management - http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/colour_management/colour_space_choice.html

 In particular note that he says 'test it out for yourself'. There are many other informative articles on the Northlight site. Depending on the camera you have, it will produce a raw image of maybe 12 or 14 bits, so you will probably get better results (smoother colour graduations - most noticeable when editing skin or skies) working in photoshop in a 16 bit space, but be aware of the various 'gotchas' by so doing. After you have adited the image then 'convert' it to Adobe rgb, say - 'asign' will not embed the argb space afaik - for printing with qi (or srgb for web). You can use the gamut warnings that photoshop has, to see if any of the pro-photo colours you have selected will be outside the argb colour space, and edit and/or select your rendering intent accordingly.  You will need to experiment for yourself, until you get the feel for what you are doing. There are numerous links on the Northlight site to more detailed aspects including a link to a Luminous Landscapes pro-photo article. Editing in pro-photo and printing in qimage will get you the best possible results from your orignal image, but you may decide it is not worth the effort for your particular purposes. I guess the next best thing would be to stick with argb throughout for printing, srgb for web.

Best wishes,

Ray
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Roger1122
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2012, 03:43:58 PM »

Thanks, Terry, Ray and Fred, both for the warm welcome and for the helpful answers. I find colour management (and most other things) to be simpler and clearer in Qimage than in PhotoShop. The Northlight site appears to be a very useful resource, although the topic is a great deal broader and more complicated than I realized.

I was interested to see that Qimage can process RAW files, but I have got used to DXO for developing my RAW files to TIFFs and will probably stick with that. It gets pretty close to what I want automatically, and there are many subtle tweaks that are easily applied if it isn't quite right. I suppose that Qimage uses DCRAW or similar program under the hood? I will be sticking to Adobe RGB throughout and just preparing sRGB versions for the web.

I am already getting prints that are really close to what I see on the screen... subject to the kind of inherent difference there is between subtractive and additive images, of course!

I didn't realise that a separate profile might be advisable for each different size of paper... For now, I just keep the same paper profile and change the print size with the pull-down. I mostly print A4, though our local camera club has us submit 2L prints for mutual review, and I just print two of those on one A4 page as there's virtually no difference in cost.

I had no idea that Qimage could read images from my camera straight to folders, but I have a system that is working pretty well right now so will leave that on one side  for the time being.

My printer is an Epson PM-4000PX, one of the very first pigment-based printers. That is the name in Japan, not sure what they call it outside (I live in Japan and have done for over 40 years).

Thanks again, everyone!
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Terry-M
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 08:42:17 PM »

Hi Roger,
Quote
I didn't realise that a separate profile might be advisable for each different size of paper
I think that is a misunderstanding.
What Fred meant was that for each paper size/type combination, you can save a print set-up. All sizes of a paper type would normally have the same printer profile.
Quote
My printer is an Epson PM-4000PX, one of the very first pigment-based printers
Your printer appears to be the same as the Epson Stylus Photo 2200. That means profiles for Epson, Ilford and other papers are likely to be available to download - which could be useful.
Terry
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Roger1122
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 11:16:11 PM »

Ah yes, I see. Printer setup not printer profile. That makes sense, as it is easy to forget something when there are so many parameters to set.

Paper profiles for Epson papers may not be so helpful in my case as I don't recognize the product codes. The papers may indeed be different of course, but the codes certainly appear to be. Will check thoroughly, as it is certainly worth saving the time and effort it takes to create one. Ilford papers are nice with my pigment printer as the glossy paper suffers less of that funny bronzing you can get. But it is very expensive here.

Thanks for the suggestions, Terry.

By the way, newby question: how do you quote just bits of a message? I'd like to do that but get all or nothing.
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rayw
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 11:35:37 PM »

Quote
By the way, newby question: how do you quote just bits of a message? I'd like to do that but get all or nothing.

second row of icons in 'post reply' - penultimate in row, or same as html -cut and paste the text in between.

Best wishes,

Ray
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Roger1122
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 12:06:17 AM »

OK, I see how to quote--simple when you know how, like so many things. Thanks. Now how do you cancel out of a mail without completing it? For instance, I started this mail with a quote code lifted from the list, as you explained, but in this mode mails aren't accessible for cut-and-paste, so I couldn't insert what I wanted to quote! Argh! Looks as if you have to pick and copy the quoted text before you use the quote code. OK, but then what happens if you want to insert a second quote later on? Excuse my ignorance!
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rayw
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 12:52:09 AM »

Quote
like so many things
and
Quote
second row of icons in 'post reply' - penultimate

the mails are listed below your reply window - use normal? window scroll bars. Insert the quote code as required.

You you can type in the html code instead of using the icon insert -   I've uses different brackets but  you need the square ones - {quote} whatever {/quote} giving you
Quote
whatever in square brackets
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Roger1122
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 02:08:13 AM »

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use normal? window scroll bars

That explains it. I was working on my iPad and I couldn't select and copy text because the iPad is anything but "normal windows." <grin>
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Fred A
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 10:17:37 AM »

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Paper profiles for Epson papers may not be so helpful in my case as I don't recognize the product codes

Rog,
I caught the above and have a feeling that you are looking at profiles with names like: EE_151_1.icm   or EE_161.icm.
Ignore those. They are for internal printer use.

You should be selecting the profile from an easy to read list.
See screen snap!

Fred
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Roger1122
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 12:24:18 PM »

Thank you, Fred, but I was not looking at those. The actual names and serial numbers, etc., of Epson papers, clearly identified as such, are not the same as the ones I am used to in Japan. That was on a brief search. I've been busy since then, but will visit and look again but I suspect it is like printers: Epson uses different names/codes in different markets outside Japan from those inside Japan. But I have calibrated my own usual glossy grade of Epson paper, and plan to calibrate the matte paper tomorrow. Since I use nothing else that will see me home and dry.
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