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Author Topic: How big a sensor do we really need?  (Read 12960 times)
MelW
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« on: June 20, 2012, 12:00:37 AM »

The separate discussion thread about QU and QU speed in handling a 40 MB file has me thinking. (Always a danger)  With the power of QU, how many megapixels do we really need.  I have a Nikon D200, and want to upgrade, mainly because I want better high ISO performance.  With QU, I have made many spectacular prints (not because of my photographic skills, believe me) routinely at 11x14, and 12x18 from crops of D200 images - some of these from fairly small crops at that.  What I am wondering is - with QU, how much better would these prints be if I had - rather than 10 MP, say 20 MP, or 30?  Has anyone done a test, say with identical lenses, and setup, of same picture taken with different sensor sizes and printed with QU?

I guess what I am saying is, in upgrading my D200, I do not feel any special need to go after a large increase in megapixels.  Am I wrong?

Mel W.  Columbia, Md.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 07:54:59 AM »

Hi Mel,
Quote
I guess what I am saying is, in upgrading my D200, I do not feel any special need to go after a large increase in megapixels.  Am I wrong?
In a nutshell, I think no. If you are contemplating buying a wide format printer to make huge banner prints, then it's probably worth it, but for the print sizes you mention, a modest increase could be helpful, especially with printing cropped images.
It is inherent that if you change your camera for an up-to-date version, you will get more pixels.
I'm in the process of  upgrading my old 8 MPx Canon to a new one with 18Mpx; the raw file size is tripled. So, in addition to deciding on the camera, it's necessary to think about the extra disc space required for image storage and the performance of your PC for processing. I downloaded some sample images to check out these points.
Rather than spend more than necessary on more pixels, consider spending on better quality lens(es); that will show more improvement to your images and prints than a few extra pixels.

We tend to think of QU being very good for making excellent prints from relatively small (pixel size) images; the opposite is true too, it's very good at making "small" prints from large images.
The same world class re-sizing algorithms are used with the bonus of user adjustable anti-aliasing.
Terry
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 08:53:31 AM »

The separate discussion thread about QU and QU speed in handling a 40 MB file has me thinking. (Always a danger)  With the power of QU, how many megapixels do we really need.  I have a Nikon D200, and want to upgrade, mainly because I want better high ISO performance.  With QU, I have made many spectacular prints (not because of my photographic skills, believe me) routinely at 11x14, and 12x18 from crops of D200 images - some of these from fairly small crops at that.  What I am wondering is - with QU, how much better would these prints be if I had - rather than 10 MP, say 20 MP, or 30?  Has anyone done a test, say with identical lenses, and setup, of same picture taken with different sensor sizes and printed with QU?

I guess what I am saying is, in upgrading my D200, I do not feel any special need to go after a large increase in megapixels.  Am I wrong?

Mel W.  Columbia, Md.

If you go to the www.DxO.com site there is a ranking of sensors. Selecting different criteria you get good information on aspects like color depth, ISO performance etc that exclude the (optical) resolution ranking.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update april 2012: Harman by Hahnemühle, Innova IFA45 and more
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Terry-M
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 09:01:39 AM »

Ernst,
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If you go to the www.DxO.com site there is a ranking of sensors.
Would you give a direct link to this information please, I cannot find it on the web site.
Thanks,
Terry

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sectionq
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 09:27:47 AM »

I think it's possible you can end up with larger mega pixel images actually being worse than you already have if you're just shopping on size alone. Defo worth doing your research or spending the money on better lenses instead as Terry suggested, 10megapixels is more than good enough for the sizes you're printing at, unless of course your crops are ridiculously small. I've often found that when I've been sent larger megapixel images to work on, the extra pixels are often unnecessary so you don't get such good definition when adding sharpening as with a smaller image. Also, working on a larger file can be more difficult to make judgements as more pixels viewed at 100% obviously means you see less of the image on the screen, why make life more difficult if you don't need to. Just another thought worth mentioning.

Jamie
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aaturner
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 10:09:38 AM »

Using both a D700 and a D800 I will comment as follows:
For prints up to A3 my D700 (12Mp) is brilliant. For prints at A2 and above the D800 comes into its own.
I strongly endorse the comment regarding the quality of the lens; an excellent lens on 12Mp trumps an average lens on 36Mp, regardless of the size of the print. Photographic technique also plays an important part in the race for quality, and more pixels is more unforgiving - a blurry hand held picture is just as much rubbish taken with 36Mp as with 12 Mp (unless the blur is rendered with artistic intent). Good technique is essential when using high megapixel count.
One advantage of the high pixel count (when used in conjunction with good glass etc.) is the ability to crop more aggresively; you can almost do away with using the camera in portrait format and just crop the landscape one to suit.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 11:06:25 AM »

Ernst,
Quote
If you go to the www.DxO.com site there is a ranking of sensors.
Would you give a direct link to this information please, I cannot find it on the web site.
Thanks,
Terry



Terry,

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings

A good lens is of course recommended, an excellent lens is needed for the latest sensors like used in the Nikon D800 or Pentax K5. With a Nikon D200 as a reference it is more likely that Mel will stay within APS sensor size and the Nikon brand. The best low ISO is however achieved with full frame sensors.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update april 2012: Harman by Hahnemühle, Innova IFA45 and more

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MelW
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 02:23:50 PM »

Thank you all very much - you are reinforcing my thinking almost exactly.  I would rather spend the money on glass rather than sensor size, but I am considering going to an FX camera and probably will at least wait to see how the upcoming D600 stacks up.  Will also check out the DxO sensor rankings.

It's funny - I was not an early adapter to digital.  Ten years ago I was still using my clunky Mamiya TLR 6x6 format and I scoffed at the idea of digital.  I can remember doing a calculation - based on grain size and pattern - but am sure it was completely erroneous - that convinced me that I would need at least 50 MP to equal the quality of my 6x6 or 6x7 cameras.  But that was before Qimage.  I now look back at some of those old pictures - still love the quality of them - but remember not too fondly the many darkroom hours sometimes needed to create just one good print. (And wait till it's dry, and oh my, is that a blue cast or cyan, and how much?)

Mel W.  Columbia, Md.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 03:59:35 PM »

Quote
Thanks, very interesting.
Quote
With a Nikon D200 as a reference it is more likely that Mel will stay within APS sensor size and the Nikon brand.
Like me except it's a Canon, the budget is limited! However, I am replacing my Canon 17-85 lens with their 15-85 version; it is a step up in quality according to all the reviews.
Terry
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aaturner
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 05:00:56 PM »

Don't overlook the often ignored prime lenses - sharp as a tack and much cheaper than the equivalent quality zoom. In addition, every prime lens comes equipped with an organic zoom mechanism - your legs.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 05:15:25 PM »

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Don't overlook the often ignored prime lenses - sharp as a tack and much cheaper than the equivalent quality zoom
Strictly I don't have one but do have an f2.8 60mm Canon macro lens which is "sharp as tack" so I often use for scenes other than macro. It's an interesting exercise to use a fixed focal length lens after using a zoom more frequently. It forces a different discipline.
Terry
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