Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Hi there. I am printing this Printer Evaluation Image file: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html
An explanation of what to look for on the print is here: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html

My printer is Canon iPF 6400. I've been printing using the 6400 for the past 3 months using Qimage 2014.202. Paper is Canon Photo Paper Plus Semi Gloss SG-201.

For fun I thought I would print from PS CS5.1. I was stunned at the difference. In particular, the B&W image in the centre has much more detail. The strawberry "pops" whereas in Qimage it looks lifeless as described in the description above. Also some banding in the gray scale between 20 and 24. The skintones on the left side are flat looking. Especially noticeable in the image at top right, there is no detail in the mat underneath the PC board whereas the print from PS show considerably more detail.

I know it sounds like the I'm not using the proper profile, or the printer is doing the colour management, that that is not the case. I'm using the stock Canon paper profile and have selected that paper type in the printer paper menu.

Hopefully, I've goofed along the way somewhere. I sure don't want to use PS for printing. Btw, I'm not using the Canon ipf Photoshop plugin that is supplied with this printer.

Regards, Paul.

Hi Paul,
I've had that test image for some time and down loaded it again just to be sure it's the same as yours.
I printed it with an Epson R2000, Ilford smooth Gloss with a custom profile and as expected no surprises.
A perfect match to my calibrated monitor, no dull reds and the B&W image has full detail and range of tones.

This image is in ProPhoto colour space  ::) and the fact you have dull reds is an indication that there's a colour management problem.
What does QU say the colour space is on your PC? Check the Exif Hotbar below the thumbs, you should see *ProPhoto RGB* at the right hand end of the data. Note particularly the asterisks.
Terry

Hi Paul,
I actually made an 8 x 10 using Photo Shop and another using Qimage Ultimate. I have them side by side under a large OTT light!

I used Epson Ultra Premium Glossy 5 star.  Using Epson's profile for that paper.
Printing at Original Size which is 10 x 7.5 at 360 ppi.

The strawberries jump off the page in both. The colors are identical,
You can see a difference, but not in colors.
Looking with a magnifier to be sure, the green leaves ar the top of the strawberries have a lot of detail in the QU print. Also the reddish brown rock formation is noticeably more detailed without the loupe.

I have to concur 100%  with Terry.

Recheck your driver settings and the as Terry said, the color space... also check to see if you have color management set to OFF in the printer.
Let is know please what you find.

Fred

I've checked using Qimage Ultimate 2014.202 and Photoshop CC 14.2.1, Epson 3880 and Innova IFA12 paper (a soft textured matt paper). There are slight differences in the tones between some of the photos but not to say one is definitely better than the other. There is a distinct difference in both the colour charts in the second column from the right - the qimage print looks as if its missing a signicant amount of cyan in this column.
I do see some unevenness in the greyscale gradient in the qimage print that is not there in the photoshop print. A nozzle check doesn't show any problems.

Hi Paul,
You have not said what QU says about the colour space of the test image?
Also, some screens shots of QU print properties and driver & paper settings for colour management and the equivalent from PS also would be very helpfull. Another pair of eyes may spot something!
It is probably worth you reading Mike's article on the subject too:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2011-printing-the-same-colors-in-qimage-ultimate-and-photoshop/ (http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2011-printing-the-same-colors-in-qimage-ultimate-and-photoshop/)
Terry

quick photo by daylight - the top is printed by qimage, the bottom by photoshop

Hi Paul,
Yes I can see a difference, we don't doubt that, the question is why?
Please refer to my previous post and reply to the questions, we may be able to help then.
Check that article too, Mike lists 4 potential potholes that can cause your problem.
Terry

The article you should reference is this one:

http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2011-printing-the-same-colors-in-qimage-ultimate-and-photoshop/

Pay close attention to potential pothole #3 in that article.  There are a lot of malformed printer profiles out there, even from manufacturers.  That can account for 99.99% of problems where the colors differ slightly: it's a difference in how LCMS (in Qimage Ultimate) and Adobe (in PhotoShop) interprets the bad data in the profile.  When there is a major difference as in the original post here, it is usually the cause of a bad setting somewhere.

Mike

I'm not Paul, I was just confirming the problem.

the correct profiles are set in both photoshop and qimage and the epson driver set to Host ICM

I can't do the check that Mike suggests as I have no more of that paper left - I was just using up the remnants to check Paul's findings. Since I mostly print monochrome using the QTR print driver nowadays I'll bow out of this (but add that I've been using Qimage since it was just 'Qimage' and do know how to set up the colour management options in both Qiomage and Photoshop)

mike (another one)

Just got back from another doctor.... sheesh.
The driver has to be set to NO COLOR MANAGEMENT
Also Quality need to have a check in Finest Detail, and slider to the right!
Icm wont work.

Fred

I've had another look - settings are consistent with yours, except for the paper ...

looking at photoshop's print settings dialog, and ticking the gamut warning box shows a large part of the image is out of gamut, particularly in the areas of concern (I'm using a matt cotton rag paper, rather than a lustre paper) so it may simply be a difference in how the out of gamut colours are handled by the respective colour management systems.

Hi Terry. Yes, the colour space is "ProPhoto."

My Monitor is profiled with "Photo" and the grayscale pic looks good on the monitor, but not on the print.

Regards, Paul.

Sorry, I should have said the monitor profiling software is Colormunki "Photo."

Btw, using the Colormunki "printer" profile for the Canon semi gloss paper is worse than Canon's profile for the same paper.

But one thing at a time. I'm certainly not faulting Qimage. It's a marvellous program that take some "getting to know." I'm convinced it's some setting in Qimage that I've goofed. I've been through them all so far, but it's hiding from me somewhere...   ;)

I'm working my way through the posts.

Thanks to all!

Hi Paul,
I'm not clear what that means, are you using a calibration device like Eye1 Display, ColorMunki or a Spyder that produce a monitor icc profile? If not then there is likely to be a problem with differences between monitor & print.
The monitor profile should be set in QU along with the printer/paper profile.

As I said in my reply #1, monitor and prints match very closely. I find some allowance has to be made for matte papers that have a much smaller gamut than gloss or semi-gloss but neutrals are good too - with a good profile!

Terry

Ah! That's better  ;D
Terry

I've heard of others having problems with ColorMunki.
What about Rendering Intent? That affects how the colour conversion is done?
Terry

Should have mentioned that I'm reading Mike's links.

Regards, Paul.

I've got Qimage and PS printouts that look the same thanks to Mike's first link. So I'm back to using Qimage again!

What fixed it was in the Canon printer driver: "color" has to be active (rather than "no color correction"). That's the part I don't get. I thought that would be "double profiling."

Also, is there a way to have "Auto crop" the default, or is there a shortcut to that option?

Thanks for the help!

Regards, Paul.

Hi Paul,
Yes, there's a Default print Properties button below the page preview, Fred calls it the Zebra button. The default settind are automatically saved.
See screen shot below.
Using the Zebra button on a thumbnail does the same thing but you do need to click save there too to retain as the default.
Although you may change prints size the crop lock will "stick" unless you change the default setting and save it.
Back to your first comment about driver setting:
I'm afraid that is not correct for colour managed printing - look at the instructions for any printer profile - and "No Color Correction" or No Color Adjustment" is given as the correct setting in the driver. I wonder if you have not been comparing like with like as PS does not remember driver settings and has been reverting to the "color active" setting.
The second screen shot is the driver setting instructions for Ilford profiles - it's the same for any printer profile.
My 1st  screen shot below also shows what QU Print Properties should look like when using a printer profile.

One other thought, are you making any profiles with your ColorMunki and are you setting the driver correctly when printing the target?  It should be exactly the same as given above: "no color correction".
Terry

Paul,
I just installed the driver for your printer, and the user's manual.

I read through the color management part and this is a very strange beast!

First, since you say you are getting flat prints, set gamma to 2.2, I would suspect.  At least try it.

As far as I can tell from the short read I did, no profiles for this printer.
The printer is so sophisticated that it calibrates itself to match an Adobe RGB or sRGB choice.
It also looks like you had it right .... HOST ICM mode gives you a warning box telling you that all color management in the printer will be shut off.

That's the most I found.
That's the kind of printer that requires some classes before you buy it.

Fred

See page 54 of the manual (pdf) is says there is a "No Color Correction" mode.
See page 396 too: Color Settings Panel - that talks about "Color matching" using an application like PS (or QU for that matter). In other words the printer profile is set by the printing applcation
This is a complex driver!
Terry

I don't think that is correct as it allows setting of the Rendering Intent.
I have now installed the driver  8) and followed the manual as posted previously #21.
See screen shots from Main driver tab and the Help for that tab.
Terry

Hi Fred and Terry.

I'm back now after running out of GY ink. There is still a little ink in the tank sloshing around when I shake it, but the printer wouldn't carry on. I sourced a tank here is Canada, so I'm up and running again. However, I've got to make the remaining tanks last until this summer when I'll have enough coin to purchase more tanks as they run out. In other words, I'm cutting away back on printing so the printer will be able to do its thing in keeping the head clog-free for the next 4 months.

I've read through your posts and they are very helpful. It is very nice of you both to install the driver and check out the manual!!

I'll crank out more prints occasionally using your suggested settings and let you know how they turn out. This isn't my first IPF printer. I purchased a iPF-5100 when they first came out back in '08, I think it was. The right head eventually clogged and I debated for months what to do. I considered Epson but they have their issues too. There was a good sale back in November so I went for the 24" Canon. Yes, it's complicated but its operation is very similar to the 5100 in operation.

I've been using Qimage for several years and I think it's the best print utility out there by far. My usual workflow is to open the file with Capture NX2 if it's a NEF file, or Image Data Converter if it's a Sony ARW raw file. My current camera is a Sony NEX7. I usually use the resulting tiff file in Topaz or PS, save as a tiff again, from there into Qimage. I never print in PS or anything else.

Best regards, Paul.