Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

I just found Qimage and am trying to use it to solve color difference problem in printing.  I scanned a watercolor and ink drawing to print with my new Epson 1430.  

My monitor isn't calibrated but I never have problems with colors on screen not matching my scanned artwork.  The colors also show up accurate in Qimage window but the print comes out very green/blue.  Image below is original and printed.

I watched the videos and checked all the correct boxes for paper and color management.  What else could it be?

Not sure if I sure sort out one question at a time but the other issue is white border printed uneven as you can see in the image above.  Although this just might be my paper holder not being very snug leaving room for movement.  This is what my screen looks like so if it's something I didn't set correctly maybe someone can tell me.  Thanks for your help.

Hi Annie,
We cannot see any image.
Back to basics, have you done a nozzle check, are all colours printing?
Terry

The printer is brand new and these are only the 4th and 5th prints.

Sorry, still cannot see your images - I just get my own dropbox opening.
That does not mean nozzles are completely clear, do the nozzle check and get that possibility out of the way.
Also, show a screen shot of QU settings on the main screen to the right of the thumbs.
Use the forum attachment feature, click additional options.
Terry

Thank you for your patience Terry.  I believe I have the images working in the posts above.  Please let me know if not.

I will do a nozzle check first thing in the morning.

Images show ok here. ie. one image in each of first two posts.

Jeff

Yes, I can see them now. It does look like there's a colour missing - or a mis-match of profiles.
In addition to the nozzle check , can you show us a screen shot of your driver settings. They should be more-or-less the same as the screen shots below.
I assume you have the paper profile set correctly (Epson profile?). Is that paper set in the driver?
What colour space is showing for the image, hover the mouse over the thumbnail and the colour space is shown in the QU exif bar at the bottom - extreme right of the data. If it has asterisk around it is embedded so should be ok. If not embedded in the image it may just show sRGB (default). Is it what you expect from your scanner?

Terry

Annie,
What are the driver settings?
Should be set to No Color Management

Fred

I carefully followed all the setting selections as shown in the videos.  No color management was selected.  Nozzle check was fine.

I have printed on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte with the correct paper selection previously.  For this print I selected presentation paper matte to match the paper I used.  

Terry, Is this info you're referring to?  I don't know what my Epson Perfection 4990 scanner does but the scans and prints (not printed by me and on a variety of medias) come out matching the original artwork.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8619/28609168975_2c41e93fb6.jpg)

I have to say that the first print on this printer was made on Inkpress luster paper and it came out perfect and beautiful.  I will use it for certain artwork that require that paper.  It is just a bit too 'photo' for certain artwork reproduction.  I would also like to print on lightly textured paper to resemble watercolor once I get this matte paper sorted out.  

Does having had a perfect print indicate the settings on all my devices are compatible?

I want to thank you all for your help.  I really appreciate it.

.
No, it's below the thumbs, right at the bottom of the QU screen.
See screen shot attached.
Your drivers settings look fine.
Have you selected the right printer profile to match the paper "SP 1430 Matte Paper-HW " ? Is there a separate profile for the presentation matte?
I can't think of anything else at present.
I often use Epson Archival Matte and get great  prints on my R2000 (not suitable for your printer) so would expect you to get good colours on matte with your printer.
Terry

Thank you for the screen shot.  Here's mine.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8758/28310370600_c7e352d55a_z.jpg)

The printer paper profile matched the QU paper profile and matched the paper used.

Here I used a premium luster paper and the image was saturated and as intense as the original except for the missing red/mauve.  I made sure to choose the recommended settings.

I know this is more of a photo forum so what I'm trying to do is a bit different.   While most are printing photos they shot I am scanning drawing/paintings and printing them to look like the original artwork.  It's obvious when the color is off. 

I don't even know what I'm trying to say except this is daunting, all the different ways prints come out.  I'm trying different papers, settings and artworks and different programs to print with.  Photoshop is pretty off.  QU is more green and blue overcast on the different artworks I've printed.  ACDSee, although off on color, is actually the closest, when I print on the basic Color control Epson Vivid or Fix Photo, which I tried out of curiosity. 

I want to sell prints of original drawings but can't seem to get colors to match close enough or know where to start fixing.  Crazy.

Thanks for all your patience.  It's hard to trouble shoot something with so many variables.

Annie,
I have just been talking with Terry (via Skype as he is in England, and I am in Florida, USA
We agreed that you are having so many changes that it is difficult to keep a grasp of it.

So, lets do this.
We would like you change some settings in Qimage and one setting in the driver.

In the driver, take the check dot out of No Color Adjustment but make sure it is still in ICM.

In Qimage, we would like you to set the profile to LET Printer Driver manage color.

See screen snaps...  Tick the right side arrow ( #054)  and select the Let Printer Driver..... as shown in #055.

Keep the proper paper selection in the driver, and now make your test prints.

If the prints are good, most likely a bad Epson profile, or wrong profile.
If the prints are still lacking red, then you likely have a clogged head or clogged nozzles.

Give it a try.

Fred

Thank you for including me in your Skype time Fred and Terry!  I've done as you suggested.  The print appears the same as before with ICM and OFF on Color Adjustment. 

The image below is the print next to the artwork.   I've include another print that is almost true to the artwork, which is good enough.  It shows a full range of colors.  Does that indicate all the colors flow good?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8173/28532343411_0b00dc46ce_z.jpg)

Annie,
Somehow I just cannot pull out the meaning from the above.
Please clarify!

1) The print appeared the same as before, with ICM and No Color Adjustment. (This sounds like it was not good.)


2) I've include another print that is almost true to the artwork, which is good enough.  It shows a full range of colors. (This sounds much better)

Which one reflects the results of using ICM and Let Printer Driver Manage Color?

Any close match to your screen?

Forgive me for being dense.

Fred

Sorry Fred.  If you can't understand something it must be me.  I skip words.

The image that shows the 3 items, the left one is the original artwork.  The middle is the new print with the settings as you advised (ICM on but No Color Adjustment).  The one on the right is a print I included to show you that the printer seems to have all it's colors/nozzles working.

In QU screen the colors look right and closely match the artwork.  Once printed, it's always a more green/blue cast and lacking the mauve in the tree trunks and the russet of the fur.  Even with the latest adjustment.

The print of the girl was done with a different photo editing program (ACDSee).  It prints with a more balanced color range although it varies with different drawings.

 

We will get to the bottom of this....

Please print and show the animal shot with the trees printed with ACDC

If you put your cursor (hover) over teh thumbnail of that image, what doe the hotbar say> See screen snap.
With or without asterisks.

If possible, could I have a copy of the image to test here?
I don't know the file size, but under 20 MB can be emailed.... or you can use Goggle Drive, or WE TRANSFER (free file transfer on line usage)


my email is wathree.ssz@verizon.net

Thanks,
Fred

The image on the left is printed using ACDSee photo editing program.  Although it's missing mauve/rust it's a lot less green the the one on the right which is printed with QU (ICM on but No Color Adjustment).


Do you mean the hotbar info with the fox thumbnail in QU?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8758/28310370600_c7e352d55a_z.jpg)

I have emailed you a link of the artwork image in Dropbox.  Please let me know if it's not accessible.

Hi Annie.
First of all the screen snaps look pretty decent, and since neither ACDC nor Qimage is using a paper specific profile, we are closing in.

I cannot get the file from DROP BOX.
I am sorry but I refuse to sign up AGAIN and join in order to receive a file.
They pestered me three times a day for months with their nonsense.
The file is 2 megabytes. Just email it.

It appears to be a scan in sRGB locked. That's good.

Waiting.......   
Fred

I sent the drop box to Terry and he just sent me the enclosed images. (he still had an active account)
No need to email.
Fred
PS Just had large power outage. So I am running late

OK Annie,
I did some checking and compared with Terry and his checking, including printing, we skyped and compared, and reached the same results and conclusions??
Results are the same and conclusions seem to be the same.
We get very decent matched prints; matched to each other and matched to calibrated monitors.

We definitely have a hint of red in the tree trunks (obvious) as well as the rest of the image hue.

I made 4 prints. I used Let printer driver manage  color. I used the correct profile for my Epson Ultra presentation Matte. Both produced the same hint of pink in the  tree trunks and the rest.
I also printed a set, side by side using Perceptual and Colorimetric intents. Slight difference in saturation, but no difference in tint/hue.

I also printed one using the Epson 1430 profile HW Matte that you used... Hardly tell which is which to my profile for my Printer an R 2000.
That was just for my comfort that the profile isn't a bad one.

Terry and I seem to agree that we would start by running a few cleaning cycles on your printer and print out a nozzle check. Look carefully at red or magenta for any broken lines.

Bear in mind that my screen snap is a screen snap of my scan of the print of your scan.
Hope some of this helps
Also want to mention that the  color space of your two samples is slightly different in that the one Named UNSPECIFIED 1 added Black Scaled in the colorspace attached to it, so the contrast might show a skinch different.

Fred and Terry
He had to run some errands

Sorry about Dropbox making you sign up to access file.  I hate signing up for anything on demand too.  It didn't use to that.  Glad I know that so I wont use it with people who don't have it.

Your prints came out with the full range of colors. 

The saturation difference, was it more intense or less?


The 2 files are different only in that one was sized down to 4x6.  Now that you mentioned it I looked at them side by side on the same monitor and see a difference.  It's interesting to know that a (any) maneuver can change other aspects of a file. 

I will run the cleaning cycles ad nozzle check.  Thanks for the tip on looking careful at the lines. 

I mentioned the issue to Mike Chaney this morning, and he added that we should ask you is you use Epson ink or third party ink.
Otherwise we are on the ball.

Fred

Annie,

I finally had the time to read this whole thread to see what the problem might be.  There's one other thing we can do that might give us a clue.  In looking at your output, it appears colors that should be near white are still greenish.  That tells me that it's possible that the white point in the printer profile you are using might be bad, causing the printer to lay down some ink where it shouldn't.  Although I'm not a big fan of soft proofing to actually "proof" colors, a soft proof might give us a clue here.  Set up QU as you were at first: with your ICC profile for the printer/paper showing in QU's "Prtr ICC" on the lower right of the main window.  Then hold the mouse cursor over that image and press Ctrl-Spacebar to show a soft proof.  Does the soft proof look green?  If so, the error is in the ICC profile you are using.  If not, the error is with the printer itself.

It's relatively rare, but I have seen corrupted manufacturer profiles before.  In several cases, I've found that the defined black point in the profile didn't match the actual black point as specified by the color tables in the profile: thereby throwing off dark colors when black point compensation is checked.  But there's nothing preventing the same thing from happening if the white point is corrupted, so the above is meant to rule out (or in) a bad ICC profile.

Edit: just as some background, the screen views in QU including the print preview are based only on your monitor profile.  The printer profile is not considered for screen views.  By using soft proof, the image is sent to the printer profile first and then back to the monitor: in order to show you what the print should look like when printed (think of soft proofing as a way to see what your printer profile is doing... but view that on the monitor).  So a soft proof view, even though it is on screen, does take into account the printer profile so if a soft proof looks green, it's due to a bad printer profile.

Regards,
Mike

Thank you Fred and Mike!

Nozzle check shows no broken lines.

I have third party CIS ink.  The image below shows the range of colors from this ink.  The drawing on the right is the original while the left one is printed on a premium luster paper with setting on Color Control, Epson Vivid, using ACDSee editing program.  So far this is the only artwork that prints up in an acceptable way.  And this is only so on this luster paper.  No other artwork printed on any paper/setting come close to the original.

The soft proof looks exactly like the scan, which is very acceptable.  Does this mean the error is with my printer?  If so, does this printer issue affect all prints?  As you can see, the image below, although not a perfect match, seems balanced in colors.

Thank you for the information.

Hi Annie,
From experience and what others say, third party inks will not usually print colours correctly unless a custom profile is made for the ink-paper combination in use. This is why when using the Epson profile or Let driver manage colour in Qimage, the colours are not correct.
.
I can see what normally would be unacceptable differences in the colours. The magenta "sky" behind and above the head is more blue in the print and there is a definite green tinge to the the lighter parts of the face. The almost pure yellow in the background is tending to orange, the pink cheeks in the print are tending to magenta. I checked these with a colour dropper tool on my calibrated monitor.
This may  sound "picky" but on a real person photo print for example, poor flesh tones are a no-no.
No, it's the ink.
Yes it will without using a custom profile.
Fred and Mike may want to add or revise my comments but in general I believe they are correct.

Terry

From the info so far, I agree with Terry in that I don't think you will be able to get a good match unless you get (or make) custom profiles for the ink you are using.  It doesn't mean your inks are "bad", only that the profile you are using was designed for Epson inks and it doesn't respond properly to the third party inks you are using.  The reason that some prints look more acceptable than others is only the colors you are focusing on or the predominance of certain colors that tend to be more noticeable.  As Terry said, if that magenta sky next to the top left of the face was important in your most recent example, it would be deemed unacceptable because the original shows a pretty pure magenta whereas the print (assuming the print is on the left) is showing almost a primary blue.  So long story short, you'll need to make a custom profile for those inks (and the paper).  You could see if the ink manufacturer supplies any profiles but in my experience, profiles supplied by ink manufacturers are not great because they tend to cut corners sometimes and supply the same profile for different printer models.  But they may be better than the Epson profiles.

Also, I should mention that it's not uncommon for third party inks to work better (using OEM profiles) on some papers than others.  For example, glossy, semi-gloss, or luster may work better than matte just due to the fact that the ink density is more "forgiving" on the less porous papers.  Insert matte paper that has a higher ink load, and the differences are amplified.

Mike

Annie, I have no personal experience with CIS feeding my printer, but I do have plenty of experience with third party inks in replacement cartridges.
Burned out a head in a Canon printer, and ruined heads in my R 1800. The colors just leaked into each other.
Also every time I would reorder, it was a lottery if I would get the same color results or off color.
Profiling is OK, but will that profile work for the next reorder?

My thoughts,,,

Fred

Fred, you are not picky at all.  I usually insist on what the colors should look like compared to the original but with the colors being sooo far off I was just plain thankful this one is even in the same universe.  The image above was on Epson Vivid.  I also printed one using Epson Fix Photo which is a better color match, especially the purple shade of sky.  These being prints of drawings and paintings instead of photos (realism) I have a bit of leeway in color differences.

Affordability is the reason I'm using third party ink.  Having to work with this for now, I should let the printer decide color management and try different setting under that since that seems the most successful so far?

Mike, you're right on some paper working better then others.  Printing on Epson Ultra Premium Matte come out disastrous where as the Inkpress Luster paper is a lot more acceptable.

Fred, thank you for sharing your experience with third party inks.  Now I know what to expect and what to keep an eye on.

I truly appreciate all your input.  It has helped tremendously.