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Author Topic: Problems making camera profile  (Read 12971 times)
wolverine@MSU
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« on: May 29, 2013, 11:34:46 AM »

I've used Qimage Pro for many years, and am considering the purchase of QU, primarily for its RAW conversion capabilities and use of camera profiles.  I downloaded and installed the trial version but I'm having some problems making the TIFF image of the IT8 target to use in ProfilePrism.  I have read and followed the directions for doing this, but some things aren't working right.  Specifically, in the instuctions in this thread

(http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage-ultimate/the-advantage-of-using-custom-camera-profiles-in-qimage-ultimate/msg12273/#msg12273)

Terry says to:

"You first need to create a place-holder profile and put that in your Qimage application data folder under the "profiles" sub-folder. The name has to match the EXIF model for the camera.
For example, take a copy adobe.icm out of the application folder and paste it into the "profiles" sub-folder and rename it, for example, to "EOS 600D.icm". ( = your camera Exif name)
You can start with any profile because the profile itself doesn't matter.  You just want it to recognize that the camera has a custom profile."

I did this and have the file named "FinePix S9000.icm" in the proper folder.  He then says:

"Add the CR2 to the queue. Your camera profile name, eg.  EOS 600D.icm, should show as the profile in the queue."

When I add a RAW image from my S9000 to the queue, the EXIF hotbar shows the ICC as "adobe.icm", not "FinePix S9000.icm"

Beyond that, I took several shots of the IT8 target at different exposure values to ensure that I had one with a proper exposure, but when I load any of them into the queue, they all look the same (i.e. autoexposure used), and no matter which one I convert to TIFF for ProfilePrism, I get a warning in PP that the image is overexposed (251 in lower right patch)

Is there any way to "turn off" the automatic exposure compensation so I can output a TIFF suitable for PP?  Or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 04:21:41 PM »

Hi,
My first suggestion is to trial QU using Adobe RGB set in raw preferences and when you have purchased and get fully familiar with using the the Raw Refine screen before attempting to make a custom profile. In fact you could then send the target raw image to Mike and he'll do it for you. He's the expert and if the image is not adequate, he'll let you know. Although I have done it, the 600D profile that is available is from my image but Mike's processing.
However, you should note the following.
Quote
When I add a RAW image from my S9000 to the queue, the EXIF hotbar shows the ICC as "adobe.icm", not "FinePix S9000.icm"
This sounds like you have not got "Enable Custom Profiles" ticked in raw preferences. You must have the "place holder" profile showing.
Quote
but when I load any of them into the queue, they all look the same (i.e. autoexposure used), and no matter which one I convert to TIFF for ProfilePrism, I get a warning in PP that the image is overexposed (251 in lower right patch)
Two things you can do in the refine screen:
Set White balance by clicking one of the grey patches on the target at the brighter end.
Also, refine the exposure a little to ensure there are no blown or nearly blown patches. From my experience do not use any Fill and nothing more that selecting a suitable rectangle to give a blue or red outline. On my image no patch has an RGB value greater than 245 and the darkest patch no less than 10. If this cannot be achieved, re-take the target with different exposures.
If the above does not make sense then you need to follow my initial advice and get a little way along the learning curve before attempting to make a profile.
Attached is my PP result report. Note the nice histogram but not all patches are perfect.
Terry

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wolverine@MSU
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 11:02:32 AM »

Thanks for your quick reply Terry.  Addressing your observations/suggestions:
I do have "Enable Custom Profiles" checked (see attachment).  When you say "You must have the "place holder" profile showing." do you mean in the EXIF hotbar, or in the Preferences/Color Management/Image screen? (see attachment). 

I was able to find find a rectangle in the IT8 target image that gave a reasonable exposure, and "converted to TIFF" in the queue.  When used as the input for PP I got reasonable results, not as good as yours, but for the sake of testing camera profiles in QU, a usable profile. (see attachment).

What really puzzles me is why, even after having a functional profile in the C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\ddisoftware\Qimage\Profiles, QU doesn't recognize it when a RAF (Fuji raw file extension) is selected (see attachment).
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Terry-M
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 06:53:59 AM »

Quote
When you say "You must have the "place holder" profile showing." do you mean in the EXIF hotbar, or in the Preferences/Color Management/Image screen? (see attachment).
I mean in the hot bar. I wonder if you have the correct Exif name for your camera because you do not see "FinePix S9000.icm" in the hot bar with the profile you have made.
That is possibly the source of the problem.
You can determine the Exif name by placing the mouse over a thumb and, right click and select Display Image Info., see attachment. "Model" is the name, ie. EOS 600D in may case.
Terry
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Terry-M
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 07:21:11 AM »

Quote
do not see "FinePix S9000.icm" in the hot bar with the profile you have made. That is possibly the source of the problem.
I have just downloaded a sample jpeg image and FinePix S9000 does seem to be the correct exif name. I can only suggest you check the actual profile name again, an extra space is in it maybe?
I'll send you a message form the forum with may email address so you can either email me your raw file or send it by wetransfer.com.
Terry
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wolverine@MSU
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 10:52:02 AM »

Aha!  Problem solved - Even though the "Extract EXIF Model" button in the Color Management preferences returns "FinePix S9000", when I look at the image info as shown in your picture, it shows the model as "S9000".  When I changed the name of the profile to "S9000.icm", QU correctly identified it and it shows up in the hotbar!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your help Terry Grin
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Terry-M
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 11:29:23 AM »

Quote
When I changed the name of the profile to "S9000.icm", QU correctly identified it and it shows up in the hotbar!!!!!!!!!!
OK. That's good but you are not finished yet I think.  Wink
You will need to start again and re-process you target image.
In C:\ProgramData\ddisoftware\Qimage\Profiles make a copy of Adobe.icm and re-name it to S9000.icm, see attached.
In QU refine the target image as required and convert to tif or bmp.
Now use that new image in Profile Prism.
PP usually places profiles in C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color so you will need to copy or move that to C:\ProgramData\ddisoftware\Qimage\Profiles so it replaces the place holder profile.

Terry
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wolverine@MSU
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 12:01:19 PM »

I had done all of this previously when QU was not picking up on the S9000.icm profile (see above post and attachments).  Is it necessary to do it again given that PP ignores embedded profiles anyway.  I just renamed my previous PP profile (FinePix S9000.icm) to "S9000.icm".  At what point will this profile actually be used?  I loaded a raw file into the queue, and when I got to the convert to TIFF stage, I chose "Perform a profile to profile (ICC) conversion" (see attachment).

On another topic: is there a way to give an explicit name to a converted file?  I want to generate three TIFF files from the same image with different levels of Fill (to use as input for TuFuse Pro) to compare it to the QU HDR feature*, so I would like to output 3 separate TIFF files ("Filename-15Fill.TIF", "Filename-0Fill.TIF", and Filename+15Fill.TIF") from the same image in the queue.  As far as I can tell, the only way to do this is to convert three times and then go back to the output folder and rename the files.

*I have the utmost respect for Mike and this is not meant to imply that the QU HDR is inferior.  I'm a "hands-on" kind of person (I drive a stick shift, have manual windows and door locks in my car, almost never use Autoexposure on my camera etc.) and like to be in control, as much as possible, of the things I can control.  I think it would be really nice to have the ability to adjust/tweak the exposure manually in the Raw Refine process for those occasions when an individual wants to take "artistic license" with a shot.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 12:18:20 PM »

Quote
Is it necessary to do it again given that PP ignores embedded profiles anyway.
Yes I think so because the image would have been converted to Adobe colour space. Better be safe than sorry, good practice too.  Wink
Quote
I loaded a raw file into the queue, and when I got to the convert to TIFF stage, I chose "Perform a profile to profile (ICC) conversion" (see attachment).
The raw image will already be in the S9000 colour space although not embedded. If anything, you would convert to another colour space like Adobe RGB or sRGB. If you converted with the Profile to profile box NOT ticked, the resulting image will have the camera profile embedded.
The top box should normally say"<input>" to ensure the correct profile is used for "from". You can type that in.
Regarding converted image naming, you can select {Q}filename or filename{Q} which gives 2 options and as you have "only use {Q}" ticked, you should get 3 different file names. It is a pity the auto numbering feature of other conversions (email copies) is not used here.
Quote
I think it would be really nice to have the ability to adjust/tweak the exposure manually in the Raw Refine process for those occasions when an individual wants to take "artistic license" with a shot.
Exposure can be varied by clicking a rectangle in raw refine as well as Fill variations but you do also have full use of the image editor. There's a button in the editor to access refine if required.
Terry
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wolverine@MSU
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »

OK, so I got a profile for the S9000 made and, as others have noted, there is a significant improvement in the saturation and color rendition, especially with the reds being more red than orange, and blues being more saturated near the gamut limits.  I'm 98% sold on upgrading to QU, but I have one particular type of photography I do that I don't think QU will be adequate for.  I do some panoramic photography, and really need the ability to use consistant settings when developing a set of raw images.  All images in a set are taken with identical f-stop and shutter speed, and need to be developed from the RAW images into TIFFs under identical conditions before feeding them to a stitching program.  I don't see how this can be done with the present Raw Refine interface.  Since it is likely that none of the 9 "quadrents" will have exactly the same tonal/exposure content among the images in a set, it is hard for me to imagine that a set of 10 or more images will be developed under uniform conditions such that they would represent equivalent "exposures".

What would be really helpful in this situation would be to have a way to "lock" the Raw Refine parameters obtained from one shot of a series and to apply them to the other raw images in the set.  Is there a way to do this.  If so, that would garner the last 2% that would make me 100% sure that I want to invest in QU.
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Fred A
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 06:33:10 PM »

Quote
What would be really helpful in this situation would be to have a way to "lock" the Raw Refine parameters obtained from one shot of a series and to apply them to the other raw images in the set.  Is there a way to do this.  If so, that would garner the last 2% that would make me 100% sure that I want to invest in QU.

Hello,
I know you have been working with Terry, but he must be at dinner.

The feature you want is already in Qimage Ultimate.
Simply select the group of thumbnails that belong together and right click.
Then use the "other" REFINE Raw Exposure. It's 9 down from the top of the menu.

Then you will a) be able to move from one image to the next, and also apply White Balance to ALL, The EXPOSURE to ALL, and the FILL LIGHT to all.

I have done this many times. It works perfectly!

Good job.

Fred
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Terry-M
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 12:34:08 PM »

Hi again,
Quote
I do some panoramic photography, and really need the ability to use consistent settings when developing a set of raw images.
I have made a number of panoramas, including 360 degree composites, and managed to get reasonable results.
See http://photosynth.net/userprofilepage.aspx?user=terrym12&content=Synths
I manually adjusted fill to get the best transition from image to image wrt exposure and Microsoft ICE did the rest.
Terry

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Jeff
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 07:29:38 AM »

I did a 90 shot panorama.  If I remember correctly I picked the best in the lot and then processed them all the same as a batch in QUltimate then ice'd them and uploaded to Microsoft Photsynth

http://www.ejdigitalimages.blogspot.co.uk/p/page-01-panos-experimental_21.html

Jeff
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 02:26:54 PM »

SOLD! Grin
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Terry-M
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 07:03:38 AM »

Quote
SOLD!
We look forward to hearing your progress with QU  Grin
Also, it would be good if you could send your profile raw image to Mike, a) for him to say it's ok and, b) so that others can use it.
Terry
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