efikim
Newbie
Posts: 35
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« on: June 22, 2014, 12:18:15 PM » |
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I know there's another topic on raw development currently running, but I thought it better not to mix this contrarian view! I've been using Qimage since it was just Qimage, and didn't have an editor at all, just did layout and resampling far better than Photoshop (version 5 at the time), and was more than a little bit cheaper than Genuine Fractals. I was in the early stages of experimenting with moving from darkroom to inkjet printing. It still does layout and resampling better than Photoshop, so I still use the current version of Qimage Ultimate. I periodically have a look at the editting facilities in Qimage, and still find them lacking relative to Photoshop and Lightroom. For me there are two issues, one on input, and one on editting and output: - input: its difficult to select white balance. Its improved a lot from the first version, but it still requires you to find a neutral target in the image, and many of my images don't have a neutral target in them. I can't find a set of presets that can be used and tweaked, and I can't find a way to apply the white balance from one image to all other images in the same sequence.
- editting/output: when you switch from the raw processor to the inbuilt editor, you drop down to 8 bits per pixel, so large changes can result in posterisation. Similarly when you output a file for further processing, you drop down to 8 bits per pixel.
I don't expect QU to offer every editting facility I want - that's not its aim, but I would like it to allow me maximum flexibility to use other tools to get to the image I want. Now that it is adding more tools in the raw processor, its getting potentially more useful than 'just' the print file generator (I'd like to be able to use TTS, and maybe the RAW noise suppression), but the 8 bit file is too much of a limitation, leading to a greater risk of posterisation in later stages of editting. I don't expect Qimage to do all the editting, just to fit in as one tool in the box; while it only outputs an 8 bit file, it doesn't fit well. |
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admin
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 02:51:26 PM » |
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With the raw developing you can do in Raw Refine, the 8 bit editing is never a detriment! You do your 16 bit operations in Raw Refine and there should be no need for "large changes" by the time you get to the editor.
Below is a good example of what I'm talking about. This is the same raw, developed in LR 5.5 versus QU 2014.239 with all default settings (untouched, just converted). These are the results of just developing the raw with no tweaks whatsoever. As you can see, QU gives a much better rendition from the start, requiring far fewer (if any) tweaks but even if you wanted to tweak lighting, fill, or exposure you do that in 16 bits in Raw Refine. This also highlights why you have so many sliders and controls in LR (ACR). Because you'll need them!
On WB, I don't put presets in QU because they are not very accurate: they require a camera profile for every camera and even then, when you choose a preset, you don't know that it matches the actual lighting. You can choose "daylight" for example but was the real lighting 5000K? 5500? 8000? What time of day was it? Daylight WB even varies by weather and location. The best thing to do, particularly when you don't have a spot to click, is to open another shot in the same series and get a WB on that and copy that to the image that has no place to click. I have a gray swatch inside my lens cap and when I shoot, I turn the lens cap over and the first shot in a series (in similar lighting) will be a shot of the lens cap under that lighting. Then later I can easily copy the WB from the lens cap to the others. It's the only way you can really be sure you have WB correct.
Mike
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efikim
Newbie
Posts: 35
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 04:14:40 PM » |
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with respect to 8 or 16 bit editting - whether 8 bit suffices depends on the changes you still want to make using tools not available in Qimage.
with respect to setting/correcting white balance, the Qimage documentation on transferring white balance settings says
'Just find any one image in the entire batch that has a known white/gray object, use the dropper on that image and apply the white balance fix to the entire set of photos at once. Voila! All your photos now have the proper white balance!'.
How do you apply the white balance fix from one image to another, please?
having a gray swatch with you helps if you're in the same lighting as the image you want to photograph - if you're under a tree canopy and the subject is in open sunlight the other side of a river, its not going to be much help. (Much like the reason incident light meters were much inferior to spot meters before meters got embedded into the camera.)
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Terry-M
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 06:37:55 PM » |
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nput: its difficult to select white balance. Its improved a lot from the first version, but it still requires you to find a neutral target in the image, and many of my images don't have a neutral target in them I make my own on practically every shooting session. And if the light changes, as it does frequently here in the UK, I take another WB shot.  The first thing I do with a batch of images in raw refine is set the WB and copy to the other images in the batch. Occasionally a small manual tweak is required to match my taste, but that is all - sorted  See attached below. Terry |
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Terry-M
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 06:44:23 PM » |
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How do you apply the white balance fix from one image to another, please? At the bottom right of the refine screen click the right hand icon. A window appears with tick boxes. See screen shots below. NB. you must have multiple images selected either as thumbs or in the queue. Terry |
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efikim
Newbie
Posts: 35
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM » |
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Thanks Terry - I do have a similar set of small grey 'cards' that I use in the studio or the garden, but for reason given earlier I consider them much less useful in the landscape.
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 09:51:12 PM » |
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having a gray swatch with you helps if you're in the same lighting as the image you want to photograph - if you're under a tree canopy and the subject is in open sunlight the other side of a river, its not going to be much help. (Much like the reason incident light meters were much inferior to spot meters before meters got embedded into the camera.)
Pretty difficult to find a canopy so thick that you can't find a ray of sunlight to illuminate your gray card. Even so, you could take the shot and then walk out into the sunlight a few minutes later. You could also swing your camera to the left or right and take a second shot of a concrete walkway, white boat, or some other neutral subject that is out in the sunlight. If you're shooting all the way across a river, you've probably got a wide range you can aim at that is in sunlight. Sunlight varies so much in color temperature depending on time of day, location, and weather, that you're better off swinging the camera off to the side and shooting a second shot where there is a neutral tag. Also, a lot of times people will tell me there is no WB reference in the image yet I can easily find one. After some practice, you can recognize certain areas like clouds, tree bark, mulch, spanish moss, even tree limbs. It takes a little practice to recognize the areas but overall it's more accurate than just picking "daylight". Mike |
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 09:53:55 PM by admin »
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Ron AKA
Newbie
Posts: 46
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 04:31:58 AM » |
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I periodically have a look at the editting facilities in Qimage, and still find them lacking relative to Photoshop and Lightroom. For me there are two issues, one on input, and one on editting and output: - input: its difficult to select white balance. Its improved a lot from the first version, but it still requires you to find a neutral target in the image, and many of my images don't have a neutral target in them. I can't find a set of presets that can be used and tweaked, and I can't find a way to apply the white balance from one image to all other images in the same sequence.
- editting/output: when you switch from the raw processor to the inbuilt editor, you drop down to 8 bits per pixel, so large changes can result in posterisation. Similarly when you output a file for further processing, you drop down to 8 bits per pixel.
I share your concern about the lack of presets for White Balance. I shoot RAW and set my camera to Auto White Balance. Then when I develop the RAW my first step with white balance if I don't like the As Shot (Auto WB) is to try one of the presets such as Daylight, or Shade. With ACR I would say about 9/10 times if there is an appropriate choice it will improve WB from As Shot. And about 50% of the time I leave it there without tweaking it further. This said, I am previewing Capture One Pro 7. It offers presets for WB. I tried it on an image being discussed in the other thread I started on RAW processing. Daylight gave me a perfect WB with ACR on the image. However the same selection in C1P7 gave me a brutally warm image. It was a total no-go as a starting point. So it does seem to matter how accurate the pre select WB really is. ACR is very accurate in my experience with my camera. Capture One, not so accurate.... My second method if I know the light is going to be difficult is to use a White Balance card (not a grey card intended for setting a light meter exposure). I use one called WhiBal. See link below for more info. It does work well, but is much more convenient to use for close up work. However, if it was a simple daylight shot, I would just take a test shot of the card in the sun. http://michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.htmlPosterization with 8 bit is going to occur when you make large changes in color where the gradient of the color is very gradual and there is no noise. With ACR I make the big changes while working in 16 bit, and try to restrict changes after that. Yes that is more difficult in Qimage as the RAW Refine too which works in 16 bit has very limited adjustment capability, and most of the color adjustment tools are in the Editor. If you are going to edit in PS or some other software, can you not save after the RAW Refine as a 16 bit TIFF, and use that for editing elsewhere? |
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efikim
Newbie
Posts: 35
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2014, 11:14:46 AM » |
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If you are going to edit in PS or some other software, can you not save after the RAW Refine as a 16 bit TIFF, and use that for editing elsewhere?
I'm not aware of any way of getting a 16 bit TIFF file out of Qimage at any stage. I can select TIFF, but only get 8 bits. |
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Ron AKA
Newbie
Posts: 46
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2014, 03:50:32 PM » |
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If you are going to edit in PS or some other software, can you not save after the RAW Refine as a 16 bit TIFF, and use that for editing elsewhere?
I'm not aware of any way of getting a 16 bit TIFF file out of Qimage at any stage. I can select TIFF, but only get 8 bits. I must be thinking of ACR where you can save a 16 bit TIFF as long as you do it before you convert to 8 bit mode. |
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