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Author Topic: Question On Color Balance  (Read 8121 times)
rmcx
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« on: April 03, 2023, 04:01:41 PM »

I have calibrated my monitor using SpyderX Elite as well as DisplayCal.  The images from either calibration look good on the screen but always print with measurably less red and more blue.

Just for comparison, I printed the same image using Photoshop Elements native print module and it is actually a bit closer to what I'm seeing on the screen, although still noticeably off.  Additionally, the QImage colors seem to be 'harsher', as though the image was overedited.

Looking for ideas here.

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2023, 04:47:02 PM »

You told us a little about your monitor's calibration but nothing about the printer: your monitor's calibration has no effect on printing.  What printer are you using?  What paper?  What printer profile are you using?  Where did the images come from (the ones you are printing) and what type of images are they (TIFF, JPEG, raw, etc.)

P.S.  Qimage, Photoshop, Lightroom, and all software that is color managed will print identical color IF you have the programs set up the same way.  If you see a difference between PSE and QU, there is a difference in either the software settings or the driver settings.  There's an article right here on this forum about that.  It's over a decade old but still applies:

https://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/may-2011-printing-the-same-colors-in-qimage-ultimate-and-photoshop/

Regards,
Mike
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rmcx
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2023, 05:14:28 PM »

Right!

Canon Pixma Pro-200
Canon Photo Paper Pro Luster
ICC Profile as loaded with the Canon printer driver

I have tried all 4 rendering intents (PSE seemed to do best with absolute colorimetric, QIU with saturation!!).
I'm viewing the various images in window light, 6500K LED and 4000K LED.  Certain times of the day for the daylight viewing and the 4000K LED give the best results, although still significantly colder than the screen.

For one set of images I'm using the standard Matrix image supplied with the SpyderX software.  It's a JPEG.  Other images, particularly the QIU 'harsh' ones, were TIFF files post-processed from my own RAWs (Sony A7C) and edited in and exported from the latest version of Capture One Pro.  I exported the TIFFs with Adobe RGB (1998) as the embedded color space.  The JPEGs were closer than the TIFFs, although again a noticeable difference from their respective screen images.

While I thought I had made sure all settings were identical between PSE and QIU, I will double check.  I will also try the test for a corrupted profile as discussed in the reference article.

Thanks
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2023, 06:18:15 PM »

Based on your reply, I have some things to suggest.  First, I would suggest not playing with the rendering intents: set everything to Relative Colorimetric with Black Point Compensation turned on.  That will produce the most accurate color.  If you start mixing and comparing absolute and saturation, it will just complicate things and those are generally not to be used with photos anyway.

Next, in Qimage make sure you drop down Printer Profile on the main window and select "Suggest printer profiles...".  The profile for "Canon Pro-200 Photo Paper Pro Luster" will likely be the top selection in the list: just verify that and double click that profile to select it, in the next window verify Relative Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation on, and click "OK".  This will allow Qimage to do the color management using the proper profile: you don't want the driver doing that.

Finally, be sure to let your eyes adjust to the white of the paper and the white of the screen.  You can never hold a print up to the screen and get the exact same white balance because papers have optical brighteners that make the white of the paper "blue" in comparison to many surroundings.  Each has to be viewed within the realm of their own whitepoint: screen vs paper.

Regards,
Mike
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rmcx
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2023, 12:21:26 AM »

I wanted to check the profile integrity as pointed out in the article you referenced.  However, I only have Photoshop Elements and that doesn't seem to have BPC controls.

I switched to Red River Palo Duro Satin since I have a lot of that laying around in 5x7.

Using their downloaded profile and Relative Colorimetric and BPC checked, the image produced by QIU is really pretty awful compared to the soft proof.  The soft proof looks pretty good in terms of skin color, clothing color etc.

The skin tones in the print might be best described as being 'drained', 'ashen', 'grey', etc.

One thing I'd like to understand better relates to viewing conditions.  I built the monitor profile using the monitor's native 6500K setting as directed by the Spyder software.  Using that setting to look at the soft proofs yields pretty good results.

But if I switch the monitor back to sRGB to view the soft proof and hold the print into direct afternoon sunlight, things line up better.

I'm pretty confused here as to how to proceed here.

Thanks
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Terry-M
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2023, 08:05:21 AM »

Hello, I've using QU for years with a calibrated Eizo monitor and mostly custom printer profiles for a range of Epson and Ilford papers. Monitor and prints match very well.
I'll just say this, the monitor should match the print, not the other way round when using full colour managed printing. I've hardly ever had an issue with colour matching, all I've done is adusted the MONITOR brightness to match the test print and then re-calibrated the monitor. I use 6500k for the monitor.

Have you checked the printer for blocked nozzles? If OK then it seems the paper profile is not good. Try some fresh paper of a different brand, eg Espson if an Epson printer. Also us some standard test images.
I hope this helps in some way.

Terry
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rmcx
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2023, 12:10:27 PM »

Did a nozzle check and that was OK.

Where did you get your custom profiles?  Why didn’t you use the manufacturer’s profiles?
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2023, 12:29:03 PM »

Terry is right: we match the monitor to the print.  But to do that, we have to have a good test print and we need to print with OEM ink on OEM paper using an OEM profile.  That's the best way to not get lost in the rabbit hole.

Which reminds me.  No one asked, but I hope you are not using third party inks and you are using genuine Canon inks.  All of this goes out the window if you are using third party inks and you need a good printer profiling tool to create your own profiles if you are.

This is a test image that is freely available in many places online.  Many people use this as a test:

https://www.ddisoftware.com/misc/PrinterEvaluationImage_V002_ProPhoto.tif

The task here is to print the above test image:

(1) Select your Canon Pro-200 and select a Canon media type that you have on hand.  Let's say Canon Pro Luster.
(2) Drop down Printer Profile and select "Suggest printer profiles" and select and open the Pro-200 Pro Luster profile (should be the first or second one on the list).
(3) Once the profile is selected, make sure the settings are Relative Colorimetric, BPC on, and click "OK".
(4) Add the above test image and print.

Provided the printer is in good working order, you are using OEM inks, and you haven't turned Driver AI off in Qimage, you should get a good test print.  If it doesn't match the monitor, the monitor needs to be adjusted.

Regards,
Mike
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rmcx
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2023, 12:52:18 PM »

Yes, strictly Canon inks!

Will try your image later this morning and report back.

Thanks
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CHoffman
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 01:24:15 PM »

That's the same test image I use. Once you have the printing sorted out, work on the monitor, not the other way 'round. Qimage is really good at preventing double profiling and other weirdness. The other day I changed papers and got the setup wrong. Qimage instantly recognized the problem and applied the necessary fixes. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise until I wasted paper.
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rmcx
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2023, 01:42:49 PM »

BTW, adjusting the monitor to the print is what I was doing. But I have posed this same issue to the SpyderX team and they were horrified!!

Their advice is that “the calibration is the calibration”. That’s why I came here for help.

Hence my confusion.
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Terry-M
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2023, 01:51:12 PM »

Quote
Their advice is that “the calibration is the calibration”. That’s why I came here for help
Yes that is right but monitor calibration in my experience does not set brightness. If too bright, colours will look washed out.

Quote
Where did you get your custom profiles?
I'm in the UK. I used a local small company but there other national ones around who do it. I've always found custom profiles are better than those provided by paper and printer manufacturers. That was some time ago so they may have improved.
Terry
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rmcx
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2023, 02:32:25 PM »

So, you don’t adjust the colors of the monitor profile?  Just the brightness?

My problem is with the colors. Brightness I’m OK on.

Thanks
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2023, 03:09:37 PM »

It's not typically a big deal.  You profile your monitor and if the monitor looks brighter than your print, you turn down the monitor brightness and reprofile at the new (lower) brightness until you get the overall brightness to match the print.  You shouldn't have to do any more than that.  The reason we adjust the monitor to match the print is that your monitor supplies its own light and can adjust brightness, color temperature, etc.  With prints you are limited to your viewing environment since prints are illuminated from an external light source that you have limited control over.

But given that your eyes will adjust to any color temperature light, you really only need to profile the monitor and printer and then it is often necessary to turn down the brightness of the monitor and reprofile until it matches the "brightness" of the print in your lighting.  Brightness is a hard thing to get right even for monitor profiling tools because it depends on ambient lighting which can be affected by time of day and even monitor viewing angle and positioning of the ambient light and how it hits the screen.

Mike
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rmcx
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2023, 05:32:17 PM »

I used your test image and adjusted the monitor profile to the point where I think they're a very good match.  Those settings also work for Datacolor's test image.  (The Spyder folks wouldn't be happy!)

However, when it's my own images, the results just don't match up.  My prints look as though the Clarity slider has been ramped up.  The images are 'harsh'.  The skin tones are bluer and the blue clothing is more saturated.

I'm looking at the soft proof mode in both Capture One and QIU using the same manufacturer ICC profile.  For your test image and Datacolor's test image, the results are pretty close.  But, again, looking at my own image, there is a noticeable difference between the two apps.  (I'm exporting from C1 to QIU as a 16-bit TIFF file with the Adobe RGB (1998) profile embedded in the image.)
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