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Author Topic: soft proofing: I'm sure I'm missing something simple, but...  (Read 8645 times)
djk
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« on: September 21, 2013, 06:44:30 PM »

After a few hours of searching, Google, the videos and manuals for Qimage and this forum, I have concluded that I'm not going to find what I'm looking for.

I'm one of (what I hope) is a legion of people frustrated with Adobe's new software rental policy who is voting with their feet and looking for alternates to CS6 and possibly, in the future, Lightroom. I like Qimage and I plan to start using it more in the near future as part of my effort to cut the Adobe cord. But one of the issues that comes up for me in dropping Adobe is soft proofing.

I've been soft proofing in Photoshop for a number of years and have been happy with the results. I display the image and a copy side-by-side, enable soft proofing in one and create a layer (or occasionally layer group) with tweaks to adjust the image for printing with the paper/printer combination I plan to use.

I'm trying to figure out how to do that in Qimage.

From what I've been able to glean, I can see what the image looks like on screen and approximately what it will look like when printed. But I have not seen any way I can create a filter to use just for printing the image -- or even better multiple filters for printing with various paper/printer combinations.

What I have not been able to figure out is what kind of workflow that will allow me to create a filter that is added to an image when I soft proof or print but not at other times. Failing that, I don't really understand the value the value of Qimage's soft proofing feature -- other than a bit of information to say that the print is close or not close to the screen representation. That is, there's no way to fix the image and get it to print the way one would want.

Thanks in advance for the help.
David
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Terry-M
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 09:37:25 PM »

Hi David,
Welcome to the forum.
Quote
I'm trying to figure out how to do that in Qimage.
Yes, it is simple.
You can view an image full screen by hovering the mouse over the thumbnail and pressing the space bar. To soft proof. hold CTRL and press the space bar. Successive pressing of the space bar will then switch between soft proof and normal view.
Of course this requires a good monitor profile to be set up in QU and the appropriate printer profile to be set too.
You mentioned "filters", it's nothing to do with any "filter" but double conversion of the image to the printer profile and then the monitor profile. Double conversion does mean soft prof can be un-reliable. You cannot beat a real print!
NB. the term "filter" in QU refers to image edit filters that enable non-destructive editing of images.
Any more questions, just ask here  Grin
Terry
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Fred A
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 09:46:14 PM »

Quote
I'm trying to figure out how to do that in Qimage.

From what I've been able to glean, I can see what the image looks like on screen and approximately what it will look like when printed. But I have not seen any way I can create a filter to use just for printing the image -- or even better multiple filters for printing with various paper/printer combinations.

What I have not been able to figure out is what kind of workflow that will allow me to create a filter that is added to an image when I soft proof or print but not at other times. Failing that, I don't really understand the value the value of Qimage's soft proofing feature -- other than a bit of information to say that the print is close or not close to the screen representation. That is, there's no way to fix the image and get it to print the way one would want.

Thanks in advance for the help.
David

Hi David,
You have a multitude of ussues but we will try to answer them.
If you create your own print adjustment filers, they can be saved and applied to the print using P. Filter at the lower right of the main screen.

How to make your filter? Probably with CURVES or LEVELS or Select Color.
Then you save the filter you created.

What most of us do who have been using Qimage for a long while is to use the printer profiles that come with your printer and paper.
If you use other brands of paper other than what is named by your printer driver, then a lot of us make our own printer profiles.... I use Profile Prism, and make my own for the papers I use.
Then there is no real need for a tweak here and there to be applied to the print.
The image will print properly, and you will print what you see on your monitor as long as the monitor is set up and profiled too.
Now we have color management/
You turn off any printer interference, and just use the printer profile in Qimage.

All that having been said, your soft proofing is a comparison between the printer profile and the monitor profile.
Without knowing your set up I cannot advise.

So to summarize, you have a softproof in Qimage Ultimate which will show you your image comparing monitor to printer which I find not worthy of my time.
Instead, I want to make my screen image perfect, and have that come out on paper.

Hope I helped...

Fred

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djk
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 11:46:22 PM »

Fred and Terry,
Thanks for the replies. But from your replies, I can see that I wasn't clear in my question.

I understand how to look at the original image and the simulated (soft proofed) print image (<ctrl><space> while hovering over the thumbnail). I understand about the monitor and printer/paper profiles. I understand that the space bar goes between displays of the screen and simulated print versions of the image.

The question comes when the simulated image is not so good that it cannot be improved by making a modification to the file just so the printed image will be closer to the desired image. (I've often found that goosing the saturation, contrast or brightness improves the image especially when printing on fine art paper.)

When I mentioned filters, I was attempting to use Qimage terminology. As I tried to explain, in Photoshop, I would make an adjustment layer(s) and match a before and after (the one with the adjustment layer) to each other with the one showing the adjustments simulated printed copy. Then if I am printing, I turn that layer on and if I'm setting up the file for display on a monitor, I turn it off. If I am printing to canvas, the tweaks I make might well be different from those that I want to make if I'm printing on glossy paper which might be different from those I want to make if I'm printing on fine art matte paper.

I'm wondering whether the problem I'm having might be in the definition of soft proofing.

I think of soft proofing as conditionally adjusting an image for purposes of printing. I'm getting the feeling that that's not how Qimage defines it.

So I'm getting the feeling that there is no way that I can process an image so it looks good when set up for display on a computer display (presumably using a jpg for web or email) and then have some tweaks to that file that are only applied to the file when it's being printed.

If that's the case, I still kind of wonder what the point of soft proofing in Qimage is. It's got kind of a look-but-cannot-touch feel. ...or did I misunderstand your answers?

Thanks again,
David
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Terry-M
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2013, 07:23:25 AM »

Hi David,
I think I understand your query now.
First:
Quote
I'm wondering whether the problem I'm having might be in the definition of soft proofing. I think of soft proofing as conditionally adjusting an image for purposes of printing. I'm getting the feeling that that's not how Qimage defines it.
Soft proofing in QU, and as far as I know is the norm, is simulating the the colour managed printing process so you get get an on screen view of what the print should look like. As I said earlier (and Fred commented on too), it's not reliable due to the double conversion required.

Quote
So I'm getting the feeling that there is no way that I can process an image so it looks good when set up for display on a computer display (presumably using a jpg for web or email) and then have some tweaks to that file that are only applied to the file when it's being printed.
.
If you are having problems with a print not looking like the screen, then the first port of call should be your motor and print profiles.
I assume you calibrating your monitor, maybe your printer profiles are not good enough?
I have some professionally produced profiles and some made with DDI Profile Prism so that screen and print are very close in colour and contrast on a variety of papers.
Having said all that, it is possible to use a print filter which is only active when printing.
 See screen shots attached.
Make a filter in the image editor using any image without any previous filter (double click a thumb) and save with a suitable name.
Put a tick in the P. Filter box which will then ask to you to select the filter, scroll down the list and select, OK.
Terry
PS. See Help on Print filters, 3rd screen shot.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 07:28:05 AM by Terry-M » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2013, 09:34:50 AM »

Quote
If that's the case, I still kind of wonder what the point of soft proofing in Qimage is. It's got kind of a look-but-cannot-touch feel. ...or did I misunderstand your answers?

This issue you bring up (see above) is not a Qimage issue, but a questionable  value to softproofing.
Qimage does it properly, and was added to satisfy the old PS users who wanted to use it and who thought it had purpose.

Quote
So I'm getting the feeling that there is no way that I can process an image so it looks good when set up for display on a computer display (presumably using a jpg for web or email) and then have some tweaks to that file that are only applied to the file when it's being printed.

This quote is the crux of the problem, David

You see, the point is that we should end up with the same image appearance whether it is showing on a computer monitor, a projector, email, or a print.
Granted that a print is somewhat different as in the way it is lighted, but using a dedicated light source to view the print (like an OTT light), we should be so close as to be able to say it looks the same.
Colors, the same, tone, contrast, and saturation.

So what do I get from reading your second explanation (which I have to thank you for), is simply,,,,,  (and many of us go through this) The Print Doesn't Match The Monitor Screen.  

Now we pop back to Terry's point.   Profiling!!!    If you are determined to do this correctly, then you must have a correct Color Management loop.
Making your own printer profiles is easy. If you are into that, have one made for you commercially if you would rather not.

FineArt paper usually comes with a downloadable profile. What Brand?
What printer?
  
Hypothetical  :::      You use a profile, and you set the driver properly to the required settings for the profile, and the print still comes out needing more contrast, or more color, etc...
This says that your monitor is too contrasty and with that, too much color....  which causes you to improperly set your adjustments based on the monitor "LOOK".

But in MOST cases, the Print is correct, but the image you feed the printer is really flatter than you think it is.

Let's look at your other comment about web size or email images... they look ok.    Well, maybe because they are being judged on a too brightly colored monitor?

It has been done many times, successfully, I might add, where people make a test print using a test image, (I can email one to you if you need one) (Not colored squares) (I hate those) and adjust the brightness and contrast of the monitor based on a print.

In other words, David, I am suggesting that you accept my test image. Use the profile. Set the driver to the correct paper, correct quality, NO COLOR ADJUSTMENT, set to OFF, and make a test print using this image.
NO TWEAKING! NO Meddling!
Just print.
Now evaluate,,, looks how... looks perfect?
It should!  
Now you can judge honestly how far or close the monitor looks.

If you have been using a PS layer to compensate for printing only, it is likely you are putting a band aid on a problem that should be corrected properly.

... and yes, layers do the same job that Qimage filters do.  
Except that layers bloat the image and are clunky. Get to use Qimage (a learning process of course) properly, and it will feel like the first time you drove a car with power steering!!   Grin

Now I will turn it back to my friend Terry, who can probably add more on this vein, and do a better job too.

BTW, Dave, don't mean to sound hard, but you did say you were looking for an alternative to Adobe.
If so, then you will have to divest yourself of some of the Photo Shop myths.

See some of the videos.... http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/learn.htm

Ask anything here and you will get honest answers.

Also, if you live in the US or Canada, I can call on the telephone for some one on one if you prefer.
Terry is in the UK if you live there.

Fred
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 09:38:34 AM by Fred A » Logged
djk
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 01:34:24 AM »

Thanks again for the additional information.

I profile my monitors monthly (I use a Spyder 2). I use the manufacturers' paper profiles. I really don't think those are the issues I'm talking about.

I think that what I'm really trying to get at is the color gamut supported by various media and devices. I used to use an HP b9180. I also used to work in Photoshop in the broadest color space I could, typically ProPhotoRGB. The monitors I used had wider color gamut than that printer. So when I printed, I often had to tweak the image for printing, especially if I wasn't using glossy paper.

I am now using an Epson 4900 and generally work in Adobe RGB and have fewer issues than I used to to get good results.

If I was saving an image as a jpg for use on the web or in an email, the color space got converted to sRGB.

I think that there's only so the ICC profiles can give and there is sometimes an opportunity to improve a particular image by adjusting it for a particular printer/paper -- hence creating an adjustment layer in Photoshop and my original question. I have one picture that I could never print adequately on my HP printer. It is a picture of rose petals and had only reds and blacks. I wanted to print it on matte paper. My b9180 would produce a kind of orange-y red. When I got my Epson, I could print it just fine, but it also helped to boost the contrast a bit. That was an example where I could see (through soft proofing) that the print just wasn't going to be that great without some adjustment.

So I go back to my a thought that perhaps I'm missing something in Qimage that I think needs to do but doesn't -- and that is based on my Photoshop experience.

I'm in the US (Massachusetts). I'd be happy to talk to you Fred. How can I send you my phone number off line?

Thanks for taking the time to help me.
David
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Fred A
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 10:31:25 AM »

Quote
If I was saving an image as a jpg for use on the web or in an email, the color space got converted to sRGB.

I think that there's only so the ICC profiles can give and there is sometimes an opportunity to improve a particular image by adjusting it for a particular printer/paper -- hence creating an adjustment layer in Photoshop and my original question. I have one picture that I could never print adequately on my HP printer. It is a picture of rose petals and had only reds and blacks. I wanted to print it on matte paper. My b9180 would produce a kind of orange-y red. When I got my Epson, I could print it just fine, but it also helped to boost the contrast a bit. That was an example where I could see (through soft proofing) that the print just wasn't going to be that great without some adjustment.

So I go back to my a thought that perhaps I'm missing something in Qimage that I think needs to do but doesn't -- and that is based on my Photoshop experience.

David,
I took some shots a year ago of an outdoor train museum with old trains and some that still run and  are used for excursion rides.
There was a RED caboose. Lot's of cabooses are red. This was fresh paint red!
With my Epson R1800, that sucker would come out orangy .  
That printer recently died, and I replaced it with an R 2000 which has chrome ink plus a different color configuration.  It has an orange cartridge and a red and a magenta.
Now I reprint that caboose shot and I get the correct red.

Sometimes, certain printers have deficiencies, and can't be absolutely corrected.

I can show you how to make a print filter easily.... just want to make sure that you aren't using that in place of a proper printer profile.
Now that you explained that you do use a profile, we can move past that.
My email address is wathree.ssz@verizon.net
Let me know your phone number and the best time to call...   I am in Sarasota, Fl. Same time zone.


By the way, part of your problem is prophoto....

looking forward to talking to you.

Fred
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:33:40 AM by Fred A » Logged
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