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Author Topic: Bug or feature?  (Read 43901 times)
Ernst Dinkla
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« on: November 23, 2009, 09:48:46 PM »


There is a way to do an aspect ratio change in Qimage but I do not think it was ever intended that way.

With a paper roll on the printer I select a usable print page size of 650x90 mm to print a proof strip of a 650x500 mm image. First I loaded that image at original size. I get the message to shrink the image so it can fit the page or print it on more pages. I select Yes to print on more pages. Then I go to the Full Page Editor and select Test Strip: crop and reduce. The preview in that menu then shows the scissors and the cropped part 650x90 mm. No deformation visible in that preview and no deformation visible in the general preview. I print either to a printer or to file and I get a 650x90 image where the 500 image dimension is resampled to 90mm so not cropped as shown in the preview, the 650mm dimension is untouched.

To avoid it I use Photoshop for a working print crop. This is an old issue that I never reported, maybe something can be done about it as it would be faster to have the Test Strip feature working in the conditions I sketched.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 02:50:43 PM »

Tried it twice: once by specifying 650x500 print size and another by creating a 650x500mm image and adding it at "original size".  Worked properly both times.  What prints is exactly what you see on the screen: the strip at the proper size.

Are you sure there aren't any other screwy settings involved like negative margins, or other settings you didn't mention like borders, image info turned on, etc.?  Might be helpful if you posted a screen shot of the Qimage main window with all panels open once you have it ready to print.  I might notice some other feature/parameter you are using.

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 03:59:50 PM »

Tried it twice: once by specifying 650x500 print size and another by creating a 650x500mm image and adding it at "original size".  Worked properly both times.  What prints is exactly what you see on the screen: the strip at the proper size.

Are you sure there aren't any other screwy settings involved like negative margins, or other settings you didn't mention like borders, image info turned on, etc.?  Might be helpful if you posted a screen shot of the Qimage main window with all panels open once you have it ready to print.  I might notice some other feature/parameter you are using.

Mike

Mike,

I can repeat it again and again. Borders off, Info off, metric or imperial, extrapolation off. Different images. Images spread on 6 pages or 2. Image turned once before the crop. As soon as I hit the "Test Strip: crop and reduce" the image fills the total (small strip, horizontal or vertical) print page and whether I change the dimensions of the crop manually or not I get the same outcome but at different scales.  One dimension is always compressed.

If I use the High Definition crop the aspect ratio of the crop is fixed and I only get pixel numbers as a guide so keeping original size and getting a strip is near impossible. If I use Auto cropping the image is no longer at the original size resolution in the crop. Both methods at least work without a squeezed outcome.

Whether I do something wrong  is one aspect but the previews are not representing the print and an aspect ratio change on a total image is not normal in Qimage.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 04:29:43 PM »

I can repeat it again and again. Borders off, Info off, metric or imperial, extrapolation off. Different images. Images spread on 6 pages or 2. Image turned once before the crop.

And I can repeat it again and again with every permutation I can think of and it works every time so this is not helping: which is why I asked for the screen shot.

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 09:00:32 PM »


Screendumps are here:

http://www.pigment-print.com/QimageCropProblem.htm



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 11:08:03 PM »

Fixed in v2010.103.

Thanks for the screen shots.  Those allowed me to reproduce the conditions... even if they did almost drive me blind trying to read the numbers on those scrunched screens.  Cheesy

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 08:52:15 AM »

Fixed in v2010.103.

Thanks for the screen shots.  Those allowed me to reproduce the conditions... even if they did almost drive me blind trying to read the numbers on those scrunched screens.  Cheesy

Mike

Sorry about the eyes. My eyes are a bit exhausted too after all the trials. You fixed it but it is unlikely that I will use it in that fashion. The original size relation is lost anyway and it more or less does what Auto cropping does. In that case I better set a smaller roll width in the driver than what the roll actually is, the width equal to longest image dimension + 10 mm print margin total and say 10 cm roll length. And do the Auto cropping in Qimage. Thinking about that again and the extra work + control to do + the limitations in what part to proof it is more likely that I will do it in the linked Photoshop like I do it right now.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


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Fred A
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 03:43:43 PM »

Fixed in v2010.103.

Thanks for the screen shots.  Those allowed me to reproduce the conditions... even if they did almost drive me blind trying to read the numbers on those scrunched screens.  Cheesy

Mike

Thanks, Mike, for your speedy fix on a problem that not many would have come across.
Fred
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 10:06:52 AM »

Fixed in v2010.103.

Thanks for the screen shots.  Those allowed me to reproduce the conditions... even if they did almost drive me blind trying to read the numbers on those scrunched screens.  Cheesy

Mike

Thanks, Mike, for your speedy fix on a problem that not many would have come across.
Fred

Fred,

I would even say nobody after its true function is revealed. It does almost the same what Auto Cropping does. In general it is a duplication of the Auto Cropping function but you can reduce the crop, after it expanded to fit the page though. To get the original size resolution back means that the crop will also be smaller than the limitating print page size dimension. What I was looking for is a crop of the original size filling the limitating print page dimension optimally. Loss of some unused paper at the ends of that paper strip isn't a problem if one counts the time it takes to remove a roll on the machine and insert a sheet and go back again to the roll for the real print.

BTW. if you undo the crop (hit X) in the menu, the preview now shows a deformed image while the actual crop made is alright.

I wonder whether the High Precision Crop can be made more flexible in crop size/aspect ratio, giving good size information back at the same time. Say equal to the PS crop function + keeping the selected resolution like the PS tool does too. Allow expansion or reduction after that within the limitation of the print page. Test crops should be 1:1 to the print size one selects for the real print. The Test Strip Crop and "Reduce" can be taken out in my opinion. It probably was never used anyway as the bug hasn't been reported before while I know it existed a long time. Not only with "Original Size" but with any size choice at the start of the job that exceeds the print page size.

The Auto Cropping together with the choice Original Size doesn't do what one expects either. It makes a crop that fits the print page. Either chance the High Precision crop as suggested above or change the Auto Cropping function that it holds the original size of the image and only crops on the dimension that doesn't fit the print page. A choice of which section will be used for the crop could be a new feature.

Or make a flexible crop function possible before the page nesting stage and either save that crop for the time being or keep it more virtual if saving goes against the "unaltered image file" philosophy of Qimage. This way you can load one or more test crops on one strip or sheet while keeping the original size resolution or expand/reduce if that is your preference. Edit, I see this is already available in the thumbnail filter creation, looks very good but I canīt find a size other than pixels. MMs would be nice.

The crop functions as used in Qimage are mainly based on a fit to page function and alteration choices start after that. Exception is the High Precision Crop that isn't a very flexible tool either.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 02:55:06 PM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 03:28:24 PM »

I would even say nobody after its true function is revealed. It does almost the same what Auto Cropping does. In general it is a duplication of the Auto Cropping function but you can reduce the crop, after it expanded to fit the page though. To get the original size resolution back means that the crop will also be smaller than the limitating print page size dimension.

I think you must just be doing something that is out of the scope of a test strip.  It works as it should.  When you click the test strip button, you get a page-size chunk of the original print.  You can print that test strip and lay it over the original (large) print and it'll match perfectly.  That's the definition of a test strip.  And that's what Qimage does.  When you're adding images with crop turned off, however, you can easily end up with a print that doesn't cover the entire (original) page size in one direction.  If your page is 10 inches wide but your print is only 8 inches wide due to the aspect ratio, don't expect it to work as you would expect if you ask for a 10 inch wide test strip of an 8 inch original print.  If you do that, it's garbage in, garbage out.  I'm not sure if that's what you are running into, but I get exactly what is expected as long as the page size is smaller than the original print.

Mike
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 08:52:02 PM »


 I'm not sure if that's what you are running into, but I get exactly what is expected as long as the page size is smaller than the original print.

Mike

It may be a difference in expectations then. In that case you better color some crop functions grey if the conditions make them unworkable. Takes away false expectations. I did some tests what works and what doesn't. Very little is usable with Original Size as the first goal.

When I load a Tiff image with a PS made size description of 260x173mm with Original Size to a print page of 500x500 mm it is described as 260x173mm

at 400 PPI and printed that way. Entirely correct.

Auto Cropping:

When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 150x150mm and Auto Cropping is on and I give the OK for fitting = cropping to the

print page I get the dimension 150x150mm at 462 PPI. No borders etc set. That isn't the correct resolution. It reduces the shortest dimension to

150mm and crops the longest dimension as far as the preview is the right information. Could be the displayed resolution isn't correct, could be that

it doesn't print correct.

When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 500x150mm and Auto Cropping is on and I give the OK for fitting is cropping to the

print page I get the dimension 500x150mm at 208 PPI. That isn't the correct resolution. It expands the longest image dimension of the image to the

longest dimension of the print page and crops the shortest dimension to the print page.

To me that doesn't represent a crop on the Original Size. That the logic of it suits people using Qimage based custom or fixed sizes etc is another

thing.

Test Strip cropping:

When I load a Tiff image with a PS made size description of 260x173mm with Original Size to a print page of 500x500 mm it is described as 260x173mm

at 400 PPI and printed that way. Entirely correct.  When I then hit the Test Strip button it crops to the predefined crop size and in that state it

keeps the 400 PPI. I can not select another segment of the image or reduce the crop while keeping the 400 PPI. When the print queue is cleared and

the same image is selected again it can happen that the crop is applied again while no crop action is made. A habit that is also present in the High

Precison crop functions but worse there. More or less usable in Original Size mode.

When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 150x150mm and let the image cover more print pages (2x2) it takes the size

260x173mm at 400 PPI according the queue information. When I hit the Test Strip button the two image dimensions crop on the 150 mm, all the sizes

displayed say 150X150mm and the resolution says 400 PPI. Looks like that is done correctly.

When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 500x150mm and let the image cover more print pages (2) it takes the size 260x173mm

at 400 PPI according the queue information. When I hit the Test Strip button the image fills the 500 mm and crops on the 150mm resolution, all the

sizes displayed say 500X150mm but the resolution says 400 PPI. Either the displayed sizes are wrong or the resolution and the preview isn't correct.

It could be that it prints correctly at 400 PPI and a reduced size but I have had it with trial prints meanwhile.

High Precision Crop:

When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 150x150mm and let the image cover more print pages (2x2) it takes the size

260x173mm at 400 PPI according the queue information. When I hit the High Precision Crop the aspect ratio of the image is used for the crop and any

variation of that size will deliver no 400 PPI in the end result. The only one that will is no crop. This function has even more the habit to stay

fixed on the image in the file. If I clear the queue and reload the image again at original size I get the crop in the preview window scissors

included but spread over 2x2 pages. It can only be cleared when I return to the Page Edit menu and clear the crop there. Looks like it lends too

much function from the action filters without telling the user

Same issues with a 500x150 print page.

-------
I wouldn't mind if you scrap the entire crop functions if Original Size is selected or when an image covers more print pages in that condition.

The Thumbnail action filter is what I will use. It seems to be the reliable and usable one for Original Size. It would be nice though to have
the mm's displayed when the crop has to be defined.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/




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Fred A
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 01:49:15 AM »

Quote
I would even say nobody after its true function is revealed

Ernst,
Thank you very much for your post. May I explain what I understand is the purpose and use for this feature?
As for the test strips, this is my understanding, and as I reread the help file, it came back to me.
It is really an ideal thing that Mike made, but effective if you need to check what the print will look like using a swatch of print, like you would look at a swatch of carpet. The swatch is the same pile and texture, and threads per inch as the big roll, but we want to see what it looks like.
 
Let's say that you have an R 1800 that will print 13 x 19, and you are so very concerned that you might have to waste a sheet on a mistake of settings or wrong profile, that you want to print a test.
The test that accomplishes either a test print or a test strip (a part of the print) as a print.
Let's set the print size to Fit to Page.  18.78 x 12.72
Now FPE, Cropping tab. Crop scissors on
If I click the test strip button, each click reduces the PRINT size of the test print yet keeping the ppi as if it was the 18.78 x 12.72 print size.
The current print size is 4.92 x 3.34 after I clicked that button 6 times. The ppi stayed at 185 which is what it was at a print size of 18.78 x 12.72.
Getting the point now?

Now we go further. Since the object of this example is to see what the print quality will look like without wasting a big sheet of 13 x 19, I purposely chose 6 clicks on the test strip because that made the test print size smaller than 4 x 6 and I can slip a piece of 4 x 6 paper in the printer, make a print, and what I get will be that portion of the image, 4.92 x 3.34, at the same ppi printed on 4 x 6 paper for you to see what that part would look like if it was 18.78 x 12.72.
So I now have a 4 x 6 at 185 ppi. I can judge the quality.
I can move the cropped or strip area around in that upper right cropping box to find the area of the image I want to test; a wedding dress perhaps?
That is what I use it for, and that is what works properly.
The point is that the test strip can be virtually any size depending on how many clicks on the test strip tool and you maintain the same ppi as your big print so you can see what a small portion will look like when printed large: same ppi.

Fred
 
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2009, 09:41:30 AM »

Quote
I would even say nobody after its true function is revealed

Ernst,
Thank you very much for your post. May I explain what I understand is the purpose and use for this feature?
As for the test strips, this is my understanding, and as I reread the help file, it came back to me.
It is really an ideal thing that Mike made, but effective if you need to check what the print will look like using a swatch of print, like you would look at a swatch of carpet. The swatch is the same pile and texture, and threads per inch as the big roll, but we want to see what it looks like.
 
Let's say that you have an R 1800 that will print 13 x 19, and you are so very concerned that you might have to waste a sheet on a mistake of settings or wrong profile, that you want to print a test.
The test that accomplishes either a test print or a test strip (a part of the print) as a print.
Let's set the print size to Fit to Page.  18.78 x 12.72
Now FPE, Cropping tab. Crop scissors on
If I click the test strip button, each click reduces the PRINT size of the test print yet keeping the ppi as if it was the 18.78 x 12.72 print size.
The current print size is 4.92 x 3.34 after I clicked that button 6 times. The ppi stayed at 185 which is what it was at a print size of 18.78 x 12.72.
Getting the point now?

Now we go further. Since the object of this example is to see what the print quality will look like without wasting a big sheet of 13 x 19, I purposely chose 6 clicks on the test strip because that made the test print size smaller than 4 x 6 and I can slip a piece of 4 x 6 paper in the printer, make a print, and what I get will be that portion of the image, 4.92 x 3.34, at the same ppi printed on 4 x 6 paper for you to see what that part would look like if it was 18.78 x 12.72.
So I now have a 4 x 6 at 185 ppi. I can judge the quality.
I can move the cropped or strip area around in that upper right cropping box to find the area of the image I want to test; a wedding dress perhaps?
That is what I use it for, and that is what works properly.
The point is that the test strip can be virtually any size depending on how many clicks on the test strip tool and you maintain the same ppi as your big print so you can see what a small portion will look like when printed large: same ppi.

Fred
 


Fred,


There's no need to explain to me that I want a proof print at 1:1. It is exactly what I asked for.

We all arrived at the conclusion that it works in the Page Edit menu if both dimensions of the print page are smaller or larger than the image is. It doesn't work however when only one dimension is. And that is what I wanted with a strip of a wide roll on a wide printer as the destination of the proof crop. I get that right now with the Thumbnail Action crop. A very good feature that spares the image data in good old Qimage fashion. Could be improved to excellent with mm feedback from the image data on cropping time.

My advice is to grey out the crop functions in the Full Page Edit window if only one dimension of the print page is short. There's no need to weed out bugs for a non functional feature. Nobody ever reported the bugs as they probably realised that it didn't bring them what they sought either. That you, Fred, had to dig in the manual for its features is another indication. Any warning there to use it only with both dimensions in the same condition?
The cropping steps are nice if you work with a desktop model and put in what normally would be wasted paper. On wide formats that isn't so handy. Try the cropping steps in some conditions that are buggy: one dimension to short and original size. Look what happens.

Putting a saw on a dead branch can help the tree and prevent accidents.

Back to business again.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Terry-M
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2009, 10:15:53 AM »

Mike said
Quote
I think you must just be doing something that is out of the scope of a test strip
Ernst said
Quote
When I load the same image with Original Size to a print page of 150x150mm
I think this is the problem:
ED is setting his Test Strip page size FIRST - wrong sequence I think.  Huh?
Use the final print size for operating the Test Strip button, until the desired size is reached then set a page size to something equal to or larger than the Test Strip size.
It works that way, I tried it. I even put several Original Size images in the queue, Test Strip clicked them all 5 times, set a different crop position for each and finally reduced the page size from A4 to 100x150mm so they all fitted on that size. The original size resolution of 400ppi remained fixed  Cheesy
Terry.
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Fred A
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »

Quote
That you, Fred, had to dig in the manual for its features is another indication. Any warning there to use it only with both dimensions in the same condition?
Ernst,
Please stay on point.
I went into the manual because that feature has been there for many years, and I seldom if ever even think about it because I am pretty accurate with my settings and rarely have a redo on prints, plus I don't have super expensive paper running.
I refreshed my memory because a) I'm old, and b) I never looked at it in years.
c) I was trying to help you understand the point of the feature which is maintaining the actual ppi of the large print in a test strip so you can see the real output on smaller inexpensive paper.
You seem to insist on making your own rules on how to use the Test Strip feature, and I even went so far as to install a driver from a 9800 Epson to make sure it worked the same on a 44.0 x 60 page size with a 42.0 x 58.0 inch print size on it.
It worked flawlessly.
8 clicks on the Test Strip icon gave me a dimension of 9.73 x 7.05 which then allows me to slip an 8.5 x 11 sheet in the other slot and print my test print at the same ppi as the 42. x 58 size print.
That's the best I can do.
Sorry,
Fred
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