Mike Chaney's Tech Corner

Mike,

In all the years of QIMAGE and all the millions of Canvas prints it must have made for people around the world I still have'nt seen the option to make the borders mirrored images of the image ends for stretched canvas usage.

Since canvas needs the mirror edge and then more white border for stretching we need much more than just two colors.

You cannot automate this in PS as the stretcher bars are a fixed size yet the images vary. Its very time consuming by hand in PS.

Mike??? Has'nt this been requested before???

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Most of the canvases I've seen - not that many in total - the image is cropped big enough to cover the edges of the frame. This leads to problems if you have carefully framed the subject in camera, etc., and I think some pattern extension (mirroring) would be useful. As you imply, it needs to be done at the printing stage. I would imagine it would be a fair bit of effort to include it in Qimage, since afaik, it does not use the concept of layers. I think it would be a very worthwhile addition, however.

On a slightly different note, what is your impression of http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/216/gallerie-wraps.html   ?

It sort of looks cheap to me, the finished item. I do not like the idea of slitting the corners - I reckon it would lead to tearing, etc., nor the idea of glue on the edges.

Best wishes,

Ray

It has been requested by me some years ago. Mike didn't think it should be part of Qimage. So I wrote several Photoshop actions to do the different job.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

All,

It is vital to future of QIMAGE that this function becomes part of its base, it is a print time option and cannot be automated by PS actions as the bar size is fixed and the image changes to the mm.

As for the "lick and stick" quickie canvas systems no fine art printer would use them. They have many issues including the lack of a warp at the back making a sharp white edge that is'nt always straight, a too sharp fold that cracks non laminated canvas and a tendancy to open the corners as the rear pins slide out.

The people who use these probably have smaller 13 inch printers and there you can only print small images as you loose too much image "around the corner". You also cannot use them for paper prints.

Ray, I considered all this years ago and we sell a better way of doing this for photo stores.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJF0A0V4eg0

Whether it is vital for Qimage is something Mike has to decide but it is absent in many RIPs as well.

Original image sizes will dictate the aspect ratio of the stretcher bar aspect ratio with any choice of canvas wrap method. A complex relation exists for the Gallery Wrap as it has to be made of straight image content only and the stretcher bar depth plays a role there too. A 1:1 relation exists for the Mirror wraps etc. If you want to use standard stretcher bar sizes then sometimes a compromise will be needed: a deformation of the image aspect ratio or a crop. The aspect ratio change is not yet possible in Qimage. Then there is the usual canvas shrinkage in the roll length that has to be compensated. I have to say that Photoshop can handle all that and it can be automated with the actions too.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

So, how does this work at the moment? Suppose aspect ratio of 3x2, say. I have a canvas roll, 2ft wide. I want a maximum size print, so allowing, say, 2 inches all round for the frame edges/back, the actual image to print will be 20 inches by 30inches. But my image on file is 2336 by 3504 pixels. That is 116.8 pixels per inch, so in photoshop I have to make a mirror strip of 233.6 pixels  ???

So, I make it, say, 234 pixels, all around the edge of the image (assuming I can eventually print right to the edge of the canvas). I then load the whole thing back into Qimage, and print it as 24inches by 34inches, is that right?

It would be easier, to add a wide border in photoshop, and be able to add it to the image in Qimage, sizing the main image to 20inches by 30inches - it would save some awkward sums that way. I'm not sure if this could be saved as a tif boarder for qimage, but either way is very messy, I reckon.

Need to do some thinking on this.....

Best wishes,

Ray

I'll certainly consider it.  I don't remember anyone ever asking for mirrored edges: only umpteen border colors.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Great. I'm not sure if a mirror wrap looks better than an extrusion wrap. I think the extrusion wrap may be easier to produce. Personally I'd not be concerned about what happens at the back of the frame, the image edge pixels could be more or less extruded/repeated to the edge of the canvas, or to a defined border. For the mirror version you'd have to dig further back into the actual image for increased frame depth. (I'm assuming you'd be generating the extrusion/mirror border in Qimage)

Better put on the coffee  :)

Best wishes,
Ray

Mike,

Former Qimage listL:

>>
Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:58 pm

Feature request

I'm looking for a method that would extend the image with a
border around it that has some relation to the image itself.
It would be a convenient way to print canvas and get the edges
in harmony with the image at the front after the canvas is
nailed on the frame. What I was thinking off is stretching the
contour pixels say an inch beyond the image size chosen. A bit
blurred would be nice too. Another method would be to mirror
the image at four sides and crop at one inch but I think the
first method would look better. Could that be an additional
border choice of Qimage ? I'm sure this can be done one way or
another with image editors but it suits a professional print
program too in my opinion.

Ernst
--

--
Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )
<<

I know you normally give a low rating to my requests. I think it is not because they are so obscure that nobody would need them, but just a personal thing. Which is something I have learned to live with.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Honestly, I didn't know what you meant by "mirror the image at four sides and crop at one inch"... the recent explanation was a lot better.  And I didn't focus on it because you said you preferred the other method over the mirroring.

Mike

Count me in on wishing for this :)  For my canvas prints I wrote my own action that goes into the image and mirrors 1.6" of the image outward, then it adds guides for the fold marks and the centerline... unfortunately I have not figure out how to turn the guides into printable lines that would knock a few minutes out of my process. Any one know how to do this and you get a copy of the action :D

Mike,

The thread after that feature request didn't leave much room for confusion though. I could add the messages here but for me it is a passed station.

I followed up an advice in that thread to make PS actions instead of asking for that feature in Qimage. They were not as easy to make as the advice suggested or maybe I wanted to make it easier for the user and added too many features at the same time. They work fine however.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

If the thread morphed into PhotoShop actions, it likely went in my ignore basket from that point forward.  No matter.  I'll look into adding it now that the explanation/goal is clear.

Mike

Ernst-

Using some distort/stretch on the edges has its benefits.  It's is really too hard for people to tell it has been done on the edges.  It also does not require a "hard" edge where you MUST have the stretcher bar.  The last advantage is not having to "dig" so deeply into the image to create enough border.

I am not talking anything extreme, but using 18mm and "stretching it" to 25mm is no big deal IMO.

The actions I wrote go up to 2" stretcher bar depth and near 20 feet lengths. With a choice of mirrored, extruded, deflected, colored, patterned + blurs or another filter if that is your choice. Including lines printed to control the centering and tension from the back of the frame. The deflection method is popular, it is more or less what you describe.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

All,

Lets get a few issues down first:

A professional Giclee print has no STANDARD stretcher bar. The frame is made to mm accuracy and no original painting image is lost - none.

The bar depths are chosen to match the image anywhere from 12 to 100mm, thats 4 inches to you guys in the USA.

No PS automation is possible due to the variable nature of the dimension.

The current method is a simple mirror of each side, other blurred are stretched forms are not acceptable in art some ok for normal photography.

QIMAGE has a large base with the Giclee community but it is loosing it as there have been no functions targetting that industry added for many years.

Canvas printing is the largest user of water based product by area in the world today.

Signage RIPS are not used much for canvas printing, they are not needed.

Add these things up and its something that needs to be done but for more general usage several other forms of imaged borders should be considered.

 

 

All,

Further to my last post please all refer to the product specifications for gallery wraps of GF Pro 6.

They have listened well to the canvas printing community and have provided 100% of the required function.

Since V6 has been available for a while it is a surprise that the requested function is'nt already in Qimage.

We know of several companies that have swapped becuase of this function and some others.

And no - I am not a GF user. ;D

Bruce

I

How would you propose the gui should be? Another button labelled 'gallery wrap' perhaps? When pressed a small window opens in which you enter the size of the border(stretcher bar depth) and a list of types of wrap - maybe just 'reflected' and 'stretched' to start with. If you also put in the size of the final image in that window (excluding the wrap border), I think it would then be a very simple interface for the user. The final image, once generated, could be positioned on the media window using the existing tools.

All it needs now is a few minutes work by Mike  ;D, and 'Robert is your father's brother' ....

Best wishes,

Ray

That first line is in contradiction with the message you started the thread with:
>>You cannot automate this in PS as the stretcher bars are a fixed size yet the images vary. Its very time consuming by hand in PS.<<
You could have learned something since.

On a Gallery Wrap (the one where actual image content is stretched on the depth of the frame, so lost at the front) the automation in PS is limited as you have to add a calculation up front for one dimension (sum of frame width+2xdepth+tolerance) at least, after that it is pushing the button but little has to be computed in that case. The other wraps including the Mirror Wrap can be automated in PS with variables for the frame size (image aspect ratio kept or not) and the frame depth. I have done the job so I know it can be automated.

ImagePrint, Ergosoft Studioprint and several other RIPs are not meant for the sign market yet do not have a canvas wrap feature. There are however a lot of sgn companies doing the canvas thing with (Eco)solvent printers, in the category cheap and fast. I believe there's one RIP with a canvas wrap feature.

Pity that GF's main function is a repeat of what Qimage does perfectly already. When I have a canvas wrap ready it is loaded to Qimage for printing and Qimage will do the upsampling to the printer's native resolution. The PS actions do no resampling when the image aspect ratio isn't changed. In few (and not desirable) cases where the resolution drops below 20 PPI in the canvas wrap size a resampling is needed to let the actions work correctly.

Your opinions on esthetics, ethics, marketshare, etc are nice, we all have opinions but do not express them so explicit.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Good morning-

If there is no standard size how do you propose to create the wrap to the precision you require?  It seems Ernst has it down in a PS action for a small fee.

However, QI doesn't pretend to compete with GF.  GF6 Professional is the only version that does gallery wraps.  It is $299(USD) (unlike mm, I cannot convert to Euros or GBP for you--too unstable  ::)  ;) )  It looks like a market for a QImage Giclee at $199 (USD) ;D.  When did GF ever come up with constant updates.  Oh, yes, didn't GF3, GF4, GF5 and GF6 each have an upgrade fee?

I am not really trying to argue with you.  I just want to make clear to the other folks that comparing QI to GF in actual functions is not a 1:1 affair. 

As to canvas being the largest use, even though you take solvent on mylar out of the equation, I still rather doubt your math.  I get several commercial and digital imaging publications each month.  I have never seen such a figure;  nor do I see massive advertisements pushing canvas.  Some of the large-company, high quality printers (such a Nash Editions) do not even offer canvas.

I guess I have to question the use of canvas as being used more than paper/fiber base in the world.  Given the number of amateur and professional printers, and the plethora of both quality and junk paper products out there, the statement is questionable.  Canvas is still a niche market.

I was thinking it should be nothing more than another border "color".  Right now you can select any border color you want for the two borders.  All we need is another selection other than "color" where you can select "mirror".  If you have "mirror" selected as the color, Qimage will then mirror the image for as long as the border specifies.  If you specify 1 inch, you'll get one inch of the image mirrored at all the outside edges.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I guess you'd have to generate the border just before printing - if you, say, enlarge the print, you'll have to lengthen the borders - and recalculate the 'pattern' therein, not just 'paint' in more of the same colour as per normal border. Then, what about the corners? I would guess a square of average colour, or black, or something.

As you say, another (or few) extra border selections would do fine - an 'M' instead of the colour patch for mirrored, an 'S' for stretched, and so on. My suggestion was just to keep it all simple, in one place, but it would fit neatly into the existing.

Best wishes,

Ray

PS, I'm delaying running some prints, waiting for this to happen ;-)

I thought about that.  If you're wrapping the canvas, the corners shouldn't matter, right?  They could be blank (white) because the edges would be cut at 90 degree angles to wrap over the canvas board.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I wouldn't want to cut the canvas corners, I would fold them into 'rabbit's ears', and tuck the excess under the top and bottom edges at the corner.  I wouldn't want to see any white lines, plus a concern with the canvas ripping, so I would not be cutting into the corners, and would need at least some margin for error, hence the requirement for the colour to be extended. Of course, others may do it some other way. Perhaps they will join in.

Best wishes,

Ray

I agree that the corners should be filled in with the resulting mirror.  The white would easily show on the corners. Also it would be fantastic of there were layout lines placed, where the folds would be and also marking the center of the width and length.  It would help with placement on the stretchers.  I guess the inputs for the GUI would be

the actual width of the stretcher,
the actual width of the stretcher
Actual depth of the stretcher
bleed that would be added to the actual depth of the stretcher or a note to add to the stretcher depth.
checkbox(s) with the placement guides.

based on the above Q would automagically interpolate up or down to the size entered,  crop to fit the aspect ratio and print :)  This would save me a ton of time getting canvases prepped to print.  If you would like a sample of what the end result that I have been getting with a PS action I would be happy to send it to you.

That must be the extended version. ::)  ::)  I learned it as Bob's your uncle.  The extended version I learned adds: Fanny's your aunt.

Just a hard effect to do here without the Aussie accent.

I wouldn't cut the corners either.  I tuck the corner at the "45" line and butt fold both edges to the corner.

I'm wondering if anyone has thought of (or tried) these possibilities:

(1) Most of the time your shots won't be tightly cropped.  In those situations, just print a little bigger than needed.  If you have a 46 inch wide printer and you are printing to a 24x36 canvas, why not just print 27x39?  On a print that size, an extra inch and a half left for the wrap at the edges probably wouldn't be an issue in most cases.  You could even create a template/layout in Qimage that has a 24x36 template behind the 27x39 so you can see what will be printed: just use the full page editor and click to see the outline of the template on top of the bigger print.

(2) Another idea: if you want an inch and a half wrap around a 24x36, just place one copy of that image at 27x39 on the page and then place your 24x36 right on top of that in freehand mode.  Now you have your 24x36 at the size you want it and your wrap consists of the same photo at a slightly larger size.  When it prints, since the 24x36 is on top, only the outer inch and a half border from the larger one will show at the edges to be wrapped.  In many situations, unless you have hard angled edges at the outer edges of the photo, this will look nice.  For example, a portrait with a typical "smokey" or "sky" type backdrop would look great.  There's an added benefit here too: your eye would be able to pick up the delineation between the bottom and top print, showing you where the fold will be but after you fold it, it will look blended because you don't see the canvas and the edges in the same plane after it is mounted anyway.  Seems like that'd work pretty well.

Just some ideas.

Mike