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Profile Prism for accurate color!
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Author Topic: I tried the new 8.1 Profile Prism.  (Read 25631 times)
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2014, 02:06:58 AM »

Thank you Mike.

I am looking forward to testing v8.4. It sounds great!

How does Relative Colorimetric intent in the profile interact with, or relate to, RC set while printing with QIU? I always print with RC set.

Since I'm in early Saturday afternoon, I'd better get outside and enjoy the day. Will install and test v8.4 tonight.

Regards

Peter


When you create a profile in Profile Prism, it automatically creates two profile look-up-tables inside the profile (ICM file): one for Perceptual and one for Relative Colorimetric.  If you choose Perceptual, it uses the perceptual table in the profile.  If you use RC, it uses the RC table.  They are simply two different mappings that map the colors completely differently for different purposes.  It's sort of like having two different profiles in one ICM.  Actually, exactly like having two versions of the profile.

If you already use RC, you're good to go: that's typically the recommended setting for printer profiles.  Only reason I pointed it out is if you happen to use Perceptual, (some) colors might be a bit muted as the profile tries to expand the gamut coverage of your printer.  Perceptual intent does that by toning down saturation a bit (in needed areas) to "fake" the appearance of the printer being able to resolve colors beyond what it really can.  Why would you even want to do that?  Only in special cases where you might want to show a color gradient in a logo or something that might have very bright out-of-gamut colors and it's more important that the gradient show than match the exact color.  In a case like that, RC might clip the colors and give a rough gradient.  Perceptual would tone them down a bit (typically desaturate) so that you at least get a smooth gradient as opposed to one that might look blown out.

Oh and one other "nasty" little tidbit about ICC profiles is that they are not "smart".  They can't read the gamut of the input image and only scale (fade) colors for perceptual intent for only the colors in the original image that need it.  ICC profiling is done with no consideration of image content... which means with perceptual intent, the gamuts are "smashed" the same amount for every image, even if you only print an image that has very subtle colors: those will look faded too with perceptual intent.

It's 10pm here so I'm done for the night.  Been at it 14 hours today.  Wink

Mike
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 02:09:32 AM by admin » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2014, 09:44:10 AM »

Quote
Regarding your first comparison of Epson versus ppv8.1 profiles. I question whether Epson would produce a profile that results in a dull rendition of such a test image. Unless your printer has deviated from spec, i assumed that the extent of the dullness of the Epson profile scan was the result of scanning and conversion/compression to the JPG you posted. If this is the case then this would have affected both your Epson and v8.1 posted images.

Peter,
Your points are so well taken that you have to appreciate the stark wonder I experienced when making the initial tests.
I felt the same way.
Could this be?HuhHuhHuh

I would call your attention to this.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/prism/about.htm

Mike made this one, not me.... I say that with the knowledge that Mike wouldn't trip himself up with some error that I might make.
See my screen snap of his scanned comparison.
SAME BASIC DIFFERENCE between the Epson Profile and the Profile Prism. Mike uses the term Manufacturer's profile because he found there are others that have poor profiles too.
I was dealing with Epson Ultra Premium Glossy, supposedly the top Glossy paper on the planet.
I was astonished!!
Then Mike switched to Epson Ultra Premium Luster (My all time favorite paper) so I switched too, and the comparison is still there, still the same problem, albeit, not quite as drastic as the Glossy. See screen snap attached, and then go to  http://www.ddisoftware.com/prism/about.htm

I apologize for not supplying the scans you wanted.... I have a desk full of test prints, scanned prints, A/B prints, loads of Beta versions prints, which I can barely see over the top.
I was at it too for 12 hours yesterday  Grin Grin Grin

If you still want any scans, I will try to find them in the pile. 
I think the final 8.4 which has been tweaked back, plus the ability to use Relative Colorimetric to put back the color that was desaturated (washed out) because of the way Perceptual works, you have the best of both worlds.
I think this 8.4 puts all the 8.1 and 8.2s to bed.
When I was testing yesterday, and we got to the RC setting, I remembered that I used to use a lot of Ilford paper. They supplied profiles, and their settings for Glossy,  included Relative Colorimetric instead of the common setting pf perceptual.

Glad to get together.

Fred

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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2014, 10:15:54 AM »

Quote
Regarding your first comparison of Epson versus ppv8.1 profiles. I question whether Epson would produce a profile that results in a dull rendition of such a test image. Unless your printer has deviated from spec, i assumed that the extent of the dullness of the Epson profile scan was the result of scanning and conversion/compression to the JPG you posted. If this is the case then this would have affected both your Epson and v8.1 posted images.

Peter,
Your points are so well taken that you have to appreciate the stark wonder I experienced when making the initial tests.
I felt the same way.
Could this be?HuhHuhHuh

I would call your attention to this.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/prism/about.htm

Mike made this one, not me.... I say that with the knowledge that Mike wouldn't trip himself up with some error that I might make.
See my screen snap of his scanned comparison.
SAME BASIC DIFFERENCE between the Epson Profile and the Profile Prism. Mike uses the term Manufacturer's profile because he found there are others that have poor profiles too.
I was dealing with Epson Ultra Premium Glossy, supposedly the top Glossy paper on the planet.
I was astonished!!
Then Mike switched to Epson Ultra Premium Luster (My all time favorite paper) so I switched too, and the comparison is still there, still the same problem, albeit, not quite as drastic as the Glossy. See screen snap attached, and then go to  http://www.ddisoftware.com/prism/about.htm

I apologize for not supplying the scans you wanted.... I have a desk full of test prints, scanned prints, A/B prints, loads of Beta versions prints, which I can barely see over the top.
I was at it too for 12 hours yesterday  Grin Grin Grin

If you still want any scans, I will try to find them in the pile.  
I think the final 8.4 which has been tweaked back, plus the ability to use Relative Colorimetric to put back the color that was desaturated (washed out) because of the way Perceptual works, you have the best of both worlds.
I think this 8.4 puts all the 8.1 and 8.2s to bed.
When I was testing yesterday, and we got to the RC setting, I remembered that I used to use a lot of Ilford paper. They supplied profiles, and their settings for Glossy,  included Relative Colorimetric instead of the common setting pf perceptual.

Glad to get together.

Fred



Thanks very much Fred.

In Mike's comparison the manufacturers profile is totally believable!

As you will be aware, Mike described Perceptual v Relative Colourmetric intents before he went to bed! I'm familiar with them and I always use RC when printing.

Maybe I have misunderstood some of the comments relating to intents. Are you actually selecting RC somewhere in Profile Prism when you are setting up and generating a profile? If so, where are selecting it?

I'm working on the 8.4 profiles now so if you can reply soonest that would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

Peter
 

« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 10:18:40 AM by pshrutpark » Logged

Fred A
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2014, 10:28:54 AM »

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Maybe I have misunderstood some of the comments relating to intents. Are you actually selecting RC somewhere in Profile Prism when you are setting up and generating a profile? If so, where are selecting it?

Hi Peter,
The place to select your preference of Intent, is in Qimage
Profile Prism creates the profile with all built in.
See attached
Notice that the RC is showing in the second screen snap indicating I selected Relative Colorimetric

Fred
Just to clear confusion.
Mike and I live in the same Geographic time zone, but I am three hours earlier than Mike's awake zone. Cool
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2014, 10:38:04 AM »

Quote
Maybe I have misunderstood some of the comments relating to intents. Are you actually selecting RC somewhere in Profile Prism when you are setting up and generating a profile? If so, where are selecting it?

Hi Peter,
The place to select your preference of Intent, is in Qimage
Profile Prism creates the profile with all built in.
See attached
Notice that the RC is showing in the second screen snap indicating I selected Relative Colorimetric

Fred
Just to clear confusion.
Mike and I live in the same Geographic time zone, but I am three hours earlier than Mike's awake zone. Cool

Thanks Fred.

That's what i thought but some of the comments made me think otherwise and that i was missing something relating to PP.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Intent settings in QIU. The settings in your screen captures are as I've been using for "yonks".

Now to print my test image with 8.4 .....

Regards

Peter
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2014, 10:48:32 AM »

Quote
That's what i thought but some of the comments made me think otherwise and that i was missing something relating to PP.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Intent settings in QIU. The settings in your screen captures are as I've been using for "yonks".

Now to print my test image with 8.4 .....

Good to talk about it as there are many reading these posts that are saying, " Change to RC? WTH? Where is that?"
They might not have seen that before.

Fred
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