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Author Topic: dark prints  (Read 21053 times)
dr5chrome
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« on: May 22, 2023, 05:20:58 AM »

hellos all -

This is likely been discussed many times, but I cant seem to find the right answer.
I print most everything in Q these days. The color is correct mostly, but everything comes out dark, a good 2 stops dark from the monitor. I have everything set to adobe RGB including the image files.
Im running a canon pro100.
Suggestions on how to correct this?.. other than manually?

thanks, dw
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Fred A
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2023, 06:01:16 AM »

Quote
This is likely been discussed many times, but I cant seem to find the right answer.
I print most everything in Q these days. The color is correct mostly, but everything comes out dark, a good 2 stops dark from the monitor. I have everything set to adobe RGB including the image files.
Im running a canon pro100.
Suggestions on how to correct this?.. other than manually?

thanks, dw

Assuming that your paper selection is correct, and the matching profile for that paper is correct, the answer 99% of the time is there is nothing wrong with your prints; your monitor is too bright.
Try to match the monitor to the print, not the other way around. If your settings are correct, and you are allowing AI t to set your driver, then the print is king. Hold the dried print next to the monitor, and take the brightness down to match.
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CHoffman
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2023, 11:44:03 PM »

The print is the reference but you need to know that the printing part of things is set up and working right. Download the test image here- https://www.lapseoftheshutter.com/printer-test-image/ and print it. Don't adjust it in any way, just print it. The site tells you what to look for, but it should basically look great. If that's the case, your monitor is likely too bright, though there could be other things wrong.
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2023, 12:46:39 AM »

THANKS FOR THE REPLY.  I do have this test image and have used it many times. Its hard to judge the density on this image but it too is dark, though id say not 2-stops. Yes, to the above - The paper profile ICM is also correct. The aI in the Q usually fixes any mismatches anyway. The color is right, but the density is way off. While I can match the screen to the print, it doesnt solve the question why when I post images online [anywhere] the output is fine. Not just on my devices but every other devise I see the images [other computers, cells, etc...], its just the prints that are  dark.. Ive spent lots of money on an Xrite devise to calibrate the monitor, so If I manually change the monitor density, it will not match the Xrite ICM.  dw
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 06:33:28 AM by Fred A » Logged
Fred A
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2023, 06:32:23 AM »

Quote
Ive spent lots
of money on an Xrite devise to calibrate the monitor, so If I manually change the monitor density, it will not match the Xrite ICM.
 
Conrad had a great idea to confirm the issue. If the test image is dark too, the monitor is too bright/
The print is correct.
Most often I found that profile monitor results  are  in need of clarifying.
I am speaking from on line experience.
The profiling gadget needs to be used AFTER you set the brightness to match the print. Then  you profile the monitor.
That's all I have.  Fred
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 06:34:20 AM by Fred A » Logged
BrianPrice
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2023, 09:35:54 AM »

If the monitor is too bright the correct method is to set the monitor to factory settings, then use the X Rite to calibrate the monitor at a lower luminenence value. If it does still not match the print, re-calibrate again at an even lower setting. The value depends on room lighting, eyesight etc, I use 90 cd/mē. and the colour will always be at the ICC standard.
You could also check that you are not double profiling which can lead to dark prints, and that you are using the correcr profile for the paper/printer combination.

Brian
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CHoffman
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2023, 03:23:29 PM »

If that test image is too dark, IMO you have to start there. Latest printer drivers, factory ink, known good paper profile. I use Red River and their profiles are generally very good. Forget about the monitor completely until printing works right. What light do you view your prints under? Hopefully others will have more suggestions.
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dr5chrome
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2023, 04:53:11 AM »

Thanks again all !  I'm reluctant to darken the screen. Many times I will edit on another computer, besides this one. Both are Xrite calibrated. I have lots of edited images, not just new ones. I did a test by lowering the monitor by 1.5 stops. If I readjust the image after darkening the screen and post it online the image is way off [of course]. Can the printing be darkened in a separate process without is affecting what is on the monitor? I also note that if I do not use the paper ICM the density is closer to the screen.. why is this?

best, dw


If the monitor is too bright the correct method is to set the monitor to factory settings, then use the X Rite to calibrate the monitor at a lower luminenence value. If it does still not match the print, re-calibrate again at an even lower setting. The value depends on room lighting, eyesight etc, I use 90 cd/mē. and the colour will always be at the ICC standard.
You could also check that you are not double profiling which can lead to dark prints, and that you are using the correcr profile for the paper/printer combination.

Brian
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admin
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2023, 12:12:10 PM »

You're not making any sense.  You darken your monitor, edit the image so it looks correct on the monitor, and then by virtue of the fact that you post it online, it looks "off" online?  On the same monitor?  That you just calibrated to that same image?  How could an image that you just adjusted to that same monitor look off just by virtue of the fact that you put it online?  You're viewing it online on the same monitor, right?  And even so, web browsers are not color managed.  The best you can do is convert to sRGB and hope it looks OK online.

Also what does "do not use the paper ICM" mean?  You are comparing selecting an ICC profile in Qimage to... what?  Letting the driver manage color?

It sounds to me like you are just confused about color management and maybe not using the right color management settings in the right places.  But that's just a guess.  Any monitor profiling puck depends on you manually setting brightness.  And even the ones that read "room illumination" and try to get you to set a monitor brightness almost always get it wrong.

You are mixing a lot of variables at once while trying to hone in on good output: trying different profiles/settings, putting images online and looking at them with a non-color-managed browser, etc.  Go back to that test image that you printed.  You said that comes out too dark.  Right away you have a problem in your printing procedures if that prints dark.  That's where you start (as others have pointed out).  Print that test image with the strawberries but print it on an OEM paper that is supported in the driver with OEM ink using a "Printer profile" that matches that printer and paper name (use "Suggest profiles" to find it).  If that comes out dark, either your printer is broken or you are expecting prints to be brighter than they should be.

Edit: Just to add/clarify, you print that test image per the paragraph above not because you are "testing" anything.  You print that as a baseline to which you refer.  Any printer running OEM ink will print that image perfectly if you use a paper that is listed in the driver and you select the manufacturer's ICC profile for that paper (the one that installed with the driver).  We do this so we can see what the image is supposed to look like.  Then we can match everything else to that print we are holding in our hand.  And that's why it is important that you print it with all OEM items: OEM paper, OEM (driver installed) ICC profile for that specific paper, OEM ink.  That's your baseline.  Without that baseline in your hand, you are just comparing to a whim/expectations which can be way off (even for the experienced).

Regards,
Mike
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 12:20:35 PM by admin » Logged
dr5chrome
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2023, 04:38:19 AM »

ok... possible I didn't explain it properly with the proper dialog.
Unfortunately I cant use a snarky reply as if I were retarded, but that's how I took it anyway.
Maybe a better reply might be the proper settings to use to solve this problem.
Everything is as you stated, and the printer isnt broken, they are new with OEM inks.
If I were in the darkroom making real prints, there would not be issue on what to do.

Everything is correct - calibration. Icm paper profile.
The gamma and density on print is way off from the monitor [doesn't matter which monitor or computer i use].

If there were an internal way to adjust these elements without affecting the main view it would make printing much easier. The properties tab to the printer driver has a manual adjust but the adjust is limited and that is just a bandaid anyway

regards.



You're not making any sense.  You darken your monitor, edit the image so it looks correct on the monitor, and then by virtue of the fact that you post it online, it looks "off" online?  On the same monitor?  That you just calibrated to that same image?  How could an image that you just adjusted to that same monitor look off just by virtue of the fact that you put it online?  You're viewing it online on the same monitor, right?  And even so, web browsers are not color managed.  The best you can do is convert to sRGB and hope it looks OK online.

Also what does "do not use the paper ICM" mean?  You are comparing selecting an ICC profile in Qimage to... what?  Letting the driver manage color?

It sounds to me like you are just confused about color management and maybe not using the right color management settings in the right places.  But that's just a guess.  Any monitor profiling puck depends on you manually setting brightness.  And even the ones that read "room illumination" and try to get you to set a monitor brightness almost always get it wrong.

You are mixing a lot of variables at once while trying to hone in on good output: trying different profiles/settings, putting images online and looking at them with a non-color-managed browser, etc.  Go back to that test image that you printed.  You said that comes out too dark.  Right away you have a problem in your printing procedures if that prints dark.  That's where you start (as others have pointed out).  Print that test image with the strawberries but print it on an OEM paper that is supported in the driver with OEM ink using a "Printer profile" that matches that printer and paper name (use "Suggest profiles" to find it).  If that comes out dark, either your printer is broken or you are expecting prints to be brighter than they should be.

Edit: Just to add/clarify, you print that test image per the paragraph above not because you are "testing" anything.  You print that as a baseline to which you refer.  Any printer running OEM ink will print that image perfectly if you use a paper that is listed in the driver and you select the manufacturer's ICC profile for that paper (the one that installed with the driver).  We do this so we can see what the image is supposed to look like.  Then we can match everything else to that print we are holding in our hand.  And that's why it is important that you print it with all OEM items: OEM paper, OEM (driver installed) ICC profile for that specific paper, OEM ink.  That's your baseline.  Without that baseline in your hand, you are just comparing to a whim/expectations which can be way off (even for the experienced).

Regards,
Mike
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Terry-M
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2023, 07:04:38 AM »

Quote
Unfortunately I cant use a snarky reply as if I were retarded, but that's how I took it anyway.
Maybe a better reply might be the proper settings to use to solve this problem.
Mike is THE expert and has been telling you how to get the 'proper' settings - as have several others.
That is, reduce the brightness on your monitor(s) to match a good test print. Just do it!

This is a regular problem and many of us have learnt the lesson years ago. I print with several paper types, all with custom profiles and a calibrated Eizo monitor, brightness set to 75cd/m sq. Prints good, monitor images good (from all sources as well as my own), online images all good.
Terry
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admin
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2023, 12:01:35 PM »

Maybe a better reply might be the proper settings to use to solve this problem.

The problem is not settings.  It's the fact that you've been answered by multiple experts and you've decided you don't want to take the advice.  Fine.  I think we're done here.

Moving on...
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